Cross another hypocrite off the list

[somerfrost]

Gov Romney of Mass is obviously positioning himself for a run at the White House...today he demanded the state Legislature vote on anti-ga-y legislation or else he will call a special election to have voters vote on it! This is a transparent move to distance himself from g-ay rights and placate the conservative, fundamentalist christian, we have a right to see what you do in your bedroom element of the Elephant party....booo! One less candidate to consider in 08...while he's at it, I think he should float a trial balloon advocating a return of Jim Crow...could create a lot of jobs constructing separate facilities throughout the state!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Gov Romney of Mass is obviously positioning himself for a run at the White House...today he demanded the state Legislature vote on anti-ga-y legislation or else he will call a special election to have voters vote on it! This is a transparent move to distance himself from g-ay rights and placate the conservative, fundamentalist christian, we have a right to see what you do in your bedroom element of the Elephant party....booo! One less candidate to consider in 08...while he's at it, I think he should float a trial balloon advocating a return of Jim Crow...could create a lot of jobs constructing separate facilities throughout the state!

Somerfrost,
You might have heard that Romney tried to float a trial balloon in an attempt to run for gov in NY last spring. It sank like a stone.
For sure, the folks in Provincetown won't take kindly to his latest ploy.
Sure, ga-y bashing plays well with some. As if it's their business.
The Repubs need to consider what they're really doing. Many see "right" through it.
Can we have a pledge of allegiance debate or one about flag burning?
Or perhaps, there just might be other more pressing issues that demand consideration.
RIP Matthew Sheppard. Those that hate because you loved deserve their own fate.

[Danzig]

i saw this earlier today, and i'm disappointed in his stance.

the whole point to the constitution, the heart and soul of our govt, is that ALL have rights. ALL are created equal. this country is not 'majority rule' as some claim it is. the majority has NO right to vote in a policy that is unconstitutional. i know some enjoy bashing the aclu, it's a whipping boy for many causes. but thank goodness they exist, as they speak for the oh so small minority that so often gets shouted down. they stand up for those that everyone else shuns.

as mccain said, everyone should be able to have a civil union. after all, that's what my husband and i have--in a nutshell. we were married by the county judge, a civil servant.

too many spend too much time worrying about what others are doing. i am talking about consenting adults here guys....what any adult does with any other adult is no one else's business.

[Danzig]

computer gremlins..

[Danzig]

repost....

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Gov Romney of Mass is obviously positioning himself for a run at the White House...today he demanded the state Legislature vote on anti-ga-y legislation or else he will call a special election to have voters vote on it! This is a transparent move to distance himself from g-ay rights and placate the conservative, fundamentalist christian, we have a right to see what you do in your bedroom element of the Elephant party....booo! One less candidate to consider in 08...while he's at it, I think he should float a trial balloon advocating a return of Jim Crow...could create a lot of jobs constructing separate facilities throughout the state!

I totally disagree with your whole premise. I think that the vast majority of people have no problem with a person being gay. But by the same token, the vast majority of people are not in favor of gay marriage. Just because a person is not in favor of gay marriage, that does not make the person a bigot. I don't think that most people care about what other people are doing in the bedroom. But that is a different issue than marriage.

Just because there are certain laws, that does not mean that the government is telling you what to do in your bedroom. I am not allowed to have 5 wives. You may think that this means that the government is sticking their head in my bedroom. I don't see it that way. The government is not telling me that I can't sleep with 5 women. They are only telling me that I can't be married to 5 different women. There is a big difference.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I totally disagree with your whole premise. I think that the vast majority of people have no problem with a person being gay. But by the same token, the vast majority of people are not in favor of gay marriage. Just because a person is not in favor of gay marriage, that does not make the person a bigot. I don't think that most people care about what other people are doing in the bedroom. But that is a different issue than marriage.

Just because there are certain laws, that does not mean that the government is telling you what to do in your bedroom. I am not allowed to have 5 wives. You may think that this means that the government is sticking their head in my bedroom. I don't see it that way. The government is not telling me that I can't sleep with 5 women. They are only telling me that I can't be married to 5 different women. There is a big difference.

no, there are plenty of people who aren't anti-gay, but are against gay marriage.
but in the case of civil laws...how can one person have a right to declare their mate, but not another? i think that's the heart of it all. this hasn't got anything to do with heaven or hell, but with next of kin, with legal issues, with who an adult wants to claim as their 'joint partner' on tax forms.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

no, there are plenty of people who aren't anti-gay, but are against gay marriage.
but in the case of civil laws...how can one person have a right to declare their mate, but not another? i think that's the heart of it all. this hasn't got anything to do with heaven or hell, but with next of kin, with legal issues, with who an adult wants to claim as their 'joint partner' on tax forms.

I don't think most people have a problem with that. I think that some states including California have laws that allow gay couples to have many of the same tax benefits as married couples.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think most people have a problem with that. I think that some states including California have laws that allow gay couples to have many of the same tax benefits as married couples.

Yep...and all those enlightened southern states that had "separate but equal" laws...what was the difference? When you say to a group of people that they can't have the same legal rights as others...that's discrimination, pure and simple! And..."nobody in California..." that's a rather sweeping generalization! Why would one be against gay marriage if they believe in their heart that a gay person is the same as them? All kinds of rhetoric, all kinds of semantics, all kinds of utter BS!!! "Many of the same tax benefits" is that the same as saying equal under the law? I've been here before...the "enlightened" folks who say, "Why some of my best friends are....(fill in the blank)" Got nothing against gay folk...as long as they don't move in next door or have to audacity to not know their place! My god, give in to these folks and next thing you know...those hell-bound Wiccans will want to have religious symbols on the tombstones of Wiccan soldiers killed defending our right to discriminate ....oh wait!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Yep...and all those enlightened southern states that had "separate but equal" laws...what was the difference? When you say to a group of people that they can't have the same legal rights as others...that's discrimination, pure and simple! And..."nobody in California..." that's a rather sweeping generalization! Why would one be against gay marriage if they believe in their heart that a gay person is the same as them? All kinds of rhetoric, all kinds of semantics, all kinds of utter BS!!! "Many of the same tax benefits" is that the same as saying equal under the law? I've been here before...the "enlightened" folks who say, "Why some of my best friends are....(fill in the blank)" Got nothing against gay folk...as long as they don't move in next door or have to audacity to not know their place! My god, give in to these folks and next thing you know...those hell-bound Wiccans will want to have religious symbols on the tombstones of Wiccan soldiers killed defending our right to discriminate ....oh wait!

Why can't I have 5 wives? If I have 5 girlfriends, they should all be allowed to have the same legal benefits. How can the governemnt tell me that I can only marry one of them. That means that the other 4 will not get the same legal rights.

If you think that I should only be able to marry one of the women, then I think you are being hypocritical.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I love liberals. All you have to do is let them open their mouths, and they will reveal their idiocy. For instance, one of my favorite people in America is Howard Dean. I love listening to him speak! I know that he will embarrass himself. (Well, he should be embarrassed by his drivel.)

Somerfrost might become my second most favorite person in America.

People are equal under the law. However, you cannot compare people who live with one another with married couples. Apples and oranges. Why? Marriage is defined by a union of man and woman. There is nothing wrong with that definition, just as there is nothing wrong with not permitting those who are not man and woman choosing to live together not to receive the same legal, and economic, acknowledgments.

When you juxtapose "Jim Crow" laws with the idea that a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage and are subjecting people to second-class status -- and by definition gay marriage cannot exist -- then I know you have a weak argument.

And please, Downthestretch, leave Matt Sheppard out of this debate; perhaps you should acknowledge all of the horrific tales of NAMBLA types torturing young boys that are not reported by the "enlightened" media, but need to be exposed by intellectually honest columnists like Michelle Malkin. Where are those stories -- Malkin's work is court-documneted -- treated with the same exposure as that of a Matthew Sheppard incident?

Now that is hypocrisy.

Cardus,
Talk about apples and oranges!
All I said was that I wished for Matthew Sheppard to RIP.
I said nothing about NAMBLA.
Twist, twist, twist and spin.
As Danzig stated, ALL people should share the same rights. I agree.
Tell me, who do you think is undeserving?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I love liberals. All you have to do is let them open their mouths, and they will reveal their idiocy. For instance, one of my favorite people in America is Howard Dean. I love listening to him speak! I know that he will embarrass himself. (Well, he should be embarrassed by his drivel.)

Somerfrost might become my second most favorite person in America.

People are equal under the law. However, you cannot compare people who live with one another with married couples. Apples and oranges. Why? Marriage is defined by a union of man and woman. There is nothing wrong with that definition, just as there is nothing wrong with not permitting those who are not man and woman choosing to live together not to receive the same legal, and economic, acknowledgments.

When you juxtapose "Jim Crow" laws with the idea that a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage and are subjecting people to second-class status -- and by definition gay marriage cannot exist -- then I know you have a weak argument.

And please, Downthestretch, leave Matt Sheppard out of this debate; perhaps you should acknowledge all of the horrific tales of NAMBLA types torturing young boys that are not reported by the "enlightened" media, but need to be exposed by intellectually honest columnists like Michelle Malkin. Where are those stories -- Malkin's work is court-documneted -- treated with the same exposure as that of a Matthew Sheppard incident?

Now that is hypocrisy.

Sorry Cardus...like all folks who jump to conclusions without facts, you are wrong...I'm not a liberal, never have been, never will...my distain for liberals is exceeded only by my distain for conservatives! "Marriage is defined..."...defined by whom? I don't define it that way! "All Men" as stated in the Constitution was defined as white male land owners....a definition is nothing more than the words of the power elite...meaningless!

[Rupert Pupkin]

I live in California. California is one of the most liberal states in the country. We have a very large gay population here. Nobody in California has a problem with gay people, yet the voters in California are overwhelmingly opposed to gay marriage. I believe the voters here passed a law outlawing gay marriage. I don't think people in California are anti-gay by any means. I don't think that being against gay marriage makes you anti-gay.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I totally disagree with your whole premise. I think that the vast majority of people have no problem with a person being gay. But by the same token, the vast majority of people are not in favor of gay marriage. Just because a person is not in favor of gay marriage, that does not make the person a bigot. I don't think that most people care about what other people are doing in the bedroom. But that is a different issue than marriage.

Just because there are certain laws, that does not mean that the government is telling you what to do in your bedroom. I am not allowed to have 5 wives. You may think that this means that the government is sticking their head in my bedroom. I don't see it that way. The government is not telling me that I can't sleep with 5 women. They are only telling me that I can't be married to 5 different women. There is a big difference.

Rupert,
I'm not gay, so let me take that out of the debate.
Here's the "reality".
Do hetero-couples get a tax advantage on their IRS filing?
Do hetero-couples have determination as to their estates?
Do hetero-couples have a say in the medical care of their partners?
Can hetero-couples designate health care to their partners on their insurance policies?
If you answered yes to the above questions, you are correct.
So, why should others, because of their preferences, be denied the same rights?
As Danzig stated, the same rights and priveleges should, must, be provided for all. To do otherwise is unjust.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Wrong to the above.

Married couples are permitted to receive the above benefits.

Cardus,
For clarification purposes...
hetero= male/female partnerships.
homo= male/male,or female/female partnerships.

I guess either I'm wrong, or you don't know what these terms mean.

I'm also still waiting for your answers to my two questions.
If you are defeated in this debate, at least have the courtesy to admit it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

If you are defeated in this debate, at least have the courtesy to admit it.

There is no way to really "win" this argument. I, for one, am for gay marriage but can completely see why people would be against it.

I think that civil unions are the answer, as they would give all the same rights to a couple, but would not use the word "marriage."

Sadly, most of my liberal brethren would not be happy with that, because they're so far gone that they would still think that was unequal, which means that we would be fighting for equality in words -- which is a most absurd notion when every right equal to marriage would be bestowed on these couples.

The reality is, that this issue just won't ever stop being an issue. But my generation is full of a disproportionate percentage of people who are for gay marriage -- so it's only a matter of time before we're the majority....and then true equality will occur.

[Danzig]

the thing i ca't figure out is...what would it hurt any person to know that gays can marry? what affect would it have to anyone other than the gay people who could legally commit to another person? would i still have the life i have? sure would. would my kids? well, yes.
as for 'respect for the sanctity of marriage' as an argument, that is fairly easy to dispute, knowing how many marriages end in failure. if hetero couples are so easily swayed from a supposed commitment, just how holy is matrimony anyway??
in your religion, if your church feels a certain way regarding marriage, that's one thing...
but as far as this country, and as far as church and state being separate, and as marriage is considered a 'legal agreement', than i would think the govt has no right to declare rights for some, but not all.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Gov Romney of Mass is obviously positioning himself for a run at the White House...today he demanded the state Legislature vote on anti-ga-y legislation or else he will call a special election to have voters vote on it! This is a transparent move to distance himself from g-ay rights and placate the conservative, fundamentalist christian, we have a right to see what you do in your bedroom element of the Elephant party....booo! One less candidate to consider in 08...while he's at it, I think he should float a trial balloon advocating a return of Jim Crow...could create a lot of jobs constructing separate facilities throughout the state!

You call Romney a hypocrite. How is he a hypocrite?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Gov Romney of Mass is obviously positioning himself for a run at the White House...today he demanded the state Legislature vote on anti-ga-y legislation or else he will call a special election to have voters vote on it! This is a transparent move to distance himself from g-ay rights and placate the conservative, fundamentalist christian, we have a right to see what you do in your bedroom element of the Elephant party....booo! One less candidate to consider in 08...while he's at it, I think he should float a trial balloon advocating a return of Jim Crow...could create a lot of jobs constructing separate facilities throughout the state!

I think you will have to cross everyone off your list then. I don't think that any of the candidates in either party are in favor of gay marriage. I believe that even Hillary and Kerry have come out against it.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think you will have to cross everyone off your list then. I don't think that any of the candidates in either party are in favor of gay marriage. I believe that even Hillary and Kerry have come out against it.

I'm not sure where Hillary stands on the issue...I'll be disappointed if she supports anti-gay legislation. Kerry? Who cares? I wouldn't vote for Kerry under any circumstances. Not sure about Obama either...I'm sure we'll hear if he runs. Usually, I don't vote based solely on one issue...for example, trying to find a candidate who cares about the issues that I do and is anti-abortion is often impossible. Not since Casey anyway!