Non-winners of an Eclipse or Championship

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Why not just change your name to " The Redundant Drugs "?

Come to think of it---an actual case could be made that Candy Ride was as impressive through the first six races of his career.



Running a mile in a world record 1:31 flat while winning a 15 runner Group 1 on turf by a city block. Running a mile and a quarter in 1:59 flat while winning a Grade 1 on dirt. And getting a two-turn mile in 1:35 2/5ths in a workout.

The horse he beat in his only American turf start came back to win a Grade 1 race, by five lengths, in course record time at Del Mar next out.

He seems like a 1st ballot lock with Discreet Cat in your "lightly raced paper-champion" Hall of Fame.

[blackthroatedwind]

Candy Ride was an awesome horse.

Discreet Cat also might be pretty good.

I was thinking of the ridiculously overhyped Smarmy Jones and the even more ridiculously overrated Not So aFleet Alex.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I felt the door was opened by JG losing the JCGC. Had he won, the Classic would have been moot in my opinion. So no, I don't think Ferdinand's win demonstrated that. The Classic might have been more important than those other races as individual events but not when u put them together as a collection. At that time, a Whitney-Travers-Marlboro-JCGC resume would have outdone a Hollywood GC-Goodwood-BCC. At that time, the Goodwood was a grade three race too.

I'll agree with your last 2 sentences. But I'll close my end of the discussion by saying I think a Kentucky Derby-Preakness-SuperDerby-BC Classic resume would have out trumped the Whitney-Travers-Marlboro-JCGC.

--Dunbar

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Candy Ride was an awesome horse.

Discreet Cat also might be pretty good.

I was thinking of the ridiculously overhyped Smarmy Jones and the even more ridiculously overrated Not So aFleet Alex.

"ridiculoulsy overrrated Not so aFleet Alex"? Let's see, he goes to his knees at the top of the stretch in the Preakness and finds a way to win and then puts up the fastest final 1/4 in the Belmont Stakes since Arts and Letters. Yeah, he sucked.

[boswd]

[quote=blackthroatedwind]Candy Ride was an awesome horse.

Discreet Cat also might be pretty good.

I was thinking of the ridiculously overhyped Smarmy Jones and the even more ridiculously overrated Not So aFleet Alex.[/QUOTE


I think Candy Ride falls into that whole Bernardini scenerio. What could have been. he got hurt I do believe but we'll never know how awesome Candy Ride could have been.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

"ridiculoulsy overrrated Not so aFleet Alex"? Let's see, he goes to his knees at the top of the stretch in the Preakness and finds a way to win and then puts up the fastest final 1/4 in the Belmont Stakes since Arts and Letters. Yeah, he sucked.

Thank you for helping prove my point.

When did I say Afleet Alex " sucked " or anything even REMOTELY close? He was a very terrific horse who ran one exceptionally good race ( the Preakness ). He did nothing on the racetrack to earn the accolades he received on internet boards.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thank you for helping prove my point.

When did I say Afleet Alex " sucked " or anything even REMOTELY close? He was a very terrific horse who ran one exceptionally good race ( the Preakness ). He did nothing on the racetrack to earn the accolades he received on internet boards.

But didn't their stories warm your heart?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Thank you for helping prove my point.

When did I say Afleet Alex " sucked " or anything even REMOTELY close? He was a very terrific horse who ran one exceptionally good race ( the Preakness ). He did nothing on the racetrack to earn the accolades he received on internet boards.

Couldn't read the English language part about the Belmont?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

Couldn't read the English language part about the Belmont?

In the Belmont he dominated a bunch of mediocre horses while running a very mediocre final time. If somehow you think his performance in that race defends him as a special horse I will have to disagree.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Candy Ride was an awesome horse.

Discreet Cat also might be pretty good.

I was thinking of the ridiculously overhyped Smarmy Jones and the even more ridiculously overrated Not So aFleet Alex.

Alex I agree on. Way overrated. Like I always say about Easy Goer, when Alex faced the two biggest tests of his career, the Juvenile and the Derby, he lost them both. At least EG lost to horses of quality. Alex lost to Wilko and Giacomo. Negative.

Now, Smarty Jones. I agree that the media added a lot to the hype with him being undefeated and all. But I don't think the hype was totally unjustified. There were racing industry people that also had jumped on the bandwagon, people with considerable experience and knowledge. I remember Bobby Frankel saying he was as good as we'd had since either Secretariat or Bid. When u've got a guy like Frankel saying it, and I grudgingly concede that he's been around a few more great horses than I have, it takes on more meaning than when I say it or some reporter says it. There were others that joined in also, in particular I remember Gary Stevens and Kent Desormeaux. The point is, I think there was some merit to his hype.

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Alex I agree on. Way overrated. Like I always say about Easy Goer, when Alex faced the two biggest tests of his career, the Juvenile and the Derby, he lost them both. At least EG lost to horses of quality. Alex lost to Wilko and Giacomo. Negative.

Now, Smarty Jones. I agree that the media added a lot to the hype with him being undefeated and all. But I don't think the hype was totally unjustified. There were racing industry people that also had jumped on the bandwagon, people with considerable experience and knowledge. I remember Bobby Frankel saying he was as good as we'd had since either Secretariat or Bid. When u've got a guy like Frankel saying it, and I grudgingly concede that he's been around a few more great horses than I have, it takes on more meaning than when I say it or some reporter says it. There were others that joined in also, in particular I remember Gary Stevens and Kent Desormeaux. The point is, I think there was some merit to his hype.

Point Given is way overrated, too, because he lost the Juvenile and KY Derby? How about Native Dancer since he lost the Derby? Didn't know that the Juvenile and the Derby were the only quality tests.

[blackthroatedwind]

Gary Stevens AND Kent Desormeaux loved Smarty Jones?

I must have missed that MENSA gathering.

He may have been pretty good, and his Preakness was spectacular, but he needed at least one more terrific race to justify anything close to the praise he received.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

From a handicapping standpoint, Blackthroatedwind is right, as Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones are no better than the top three 3-year-olds of this season on form.

AA and SJ both had a lot of things to like about them though. Both were outstanding horses who outran their pedigrees. In Afleet Alex's case, I remain convinced that he ran the best race in three of his four career losses. Smarty Jones clearly ran the best race, albeit in defeat, in the Belmont Stakes.

Of these five horses, I actually belive Barbaro may have slightly been the worst of them on dirt. However, Barbaro was so freakish on turf, that he very likely would have won this years Breeders Cup turf, and probably could have gone down as all-time great on that surface, if never tried on dirt.

Here are the past performances anyway. Not very much seperates these five horses at all on form. Interestingly enough, of these five, only Discreet Cat will be around to see a 4-year-old season.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

Point Given is way overrated, too, because he lost the Juvenile and KY Derby? How about Native Dancer since he lost the Derby? Didn't know that the Juvenile and the Derby were the only quality tests.

I've searched throughout my posts and don't see where I ever said those were the ONLY quality tests. I said they were the BIGGEST for those horses. Do u dispute that?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've searched throughout my posts and don't see where I ever said those were the ONLY quality tests. I said they were the BIGGEST for those horses. Do u dispute that?

Accurately responding to posts is not a strongsuit of that poster.

Misrepresenting what you have posted, however, is.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Accurately responding to posts is not a strongsuit of that poster.

Misrepresenting what you have posted, however, is.

First of all you can eat my shorts. Second, explain to me where I am inaccurate or have misrepresented? I state facts and ask questions. Because you or others may not like the conclusions that those facts and questions may lead you to is not an excuse to attack my character.

The issue raised by someone other than me is whether Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are "way overrated." So I have raised some other horses who failed at major races during their juvenile or three year old season and ask if you feel that they are similarly overrated? Smarty Jones was essentially Majestic Prince of this generation record-wise so he (MP) must be overrated, too? It's fair game to ask questions such as this without impugning me for asking them. Unless you are all so wise and knowledgeable that your opinions cannot be challenged. If so, then you'd have done great during the middle ages when the earth was considered to be both flat and the center of the universe. Ta Ta.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

First of all you can eat my shorts. Second, explain to me where I am inaccurate or have misrepresented? I state facts and ask questions. Because you or others may not like the conclusions that those facts and questions may lead you to is not an excuse to attack my character.

The issue raised by someone other than me is whether Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex are "way overrated." So I have raised some other horses who failed at major races during their juvenile or three year old season and ask if you feel that they are similarly overrated? Smarty Jones was essentially Majestic Prince of this generation record-wise so he (MP) must be overrated, too? It's fair game to ask questions such as this without impugning me for asking them. Unless you are all so wise and knowledgeable that your opinions cannot be challenged. If so, then you'd have done great during the middle ages when the earth was considered to be both flat and the center of the universe. Ta Ta.

When you make a post like this.....

Originally Posted by FairPlay

"ridiculoulsy overrrated Not so aFleet Alex"? Let's see, he goes to his knees at the top of the stretch in the Preakness and finds a way to win and then puts up the fastest final 1/4 in the Belmont Stakes since Arts and Letters. Yeah, he sucked.

You join the list of posters that skew people's words to fit their own agendas. I never said Afleet Alex " sucked ", nor did I imply it, but to further your agenda you suggested I did.

You have furthered your postition of poster to be ignored with your continued smart azz responses like the most recent one. For a poster with only a handful of posts you have hardly left anyone wanting more.

The sandbox is full of your ilk....and nobody is playing with you there either.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

When you make a post like this.....



You join the list of posters that skew people's words to fit their own agendas. I never said Afleet Alex " sucked ", nor did I imply it, but to further your agenda you suggested I did.

You have furthered your postition of poster to be ignored with your continued smart azz responses like the most recent one. For a poster with only a handful of posts you have hardly left anyone wanting more.

The sandbox is full of your ilk....and nobody is playing with you there either.

If you're paranoid and read meanings into my posts, then the issue is with you, not with me. I am the only person who raised the "suck" word to make a sarcastic point about Alex's peformance on the track. Because you associate that phrase with your assessment of Alex's career is your problem and probably a function of your own egocentricity.

And to answer your questions: The Kentucky Derby and BC Juvenile should not be the biggest indicators of a horse's career performance. In my view those are indicators that are easily rebutted. Would any one here take Wilko and Giacomo over Afleet Alex as racehorses during the course of their racing careers? Cigar and John Henry never raced in a juvenile race of meaning or the Triple Crown and yet they're great horses. Holy Bull flopped in the Derby and he was a great horse. People here have short memories about the impact of both Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex: Smarty Jones was the first horse to make the cover of Sports Illustrated in a generation and Alex was a serious candidate for SI's Sportsman of the Year Award. So I will end sarcastically: "Yeah, they were real overrated." And look who's casting stones about twisting their words: He who says "Not so aFleet Alex." What a bunch of b.s you're cultivating.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by FairPlay

If you're paranoid and read meanings into my posts, then the issue is with you, not with me. I am the only person who raised the "suck" word to make a sarcastic point about Alex's peformance on the track. Because you associate that phrase with your assessment of Alex's career is your problem and probably a function of your own egocentricity.

And to answer your questions: The Kentucky Derby and BC Juvenile should not be the biggest indicators of a horse's career performance. In my view those are indicators that are easily rebutted. Would any one here take Wilko and Giacomo over Afleet Alex as racehorses during the course of their racing careers? Cigar and John Henry never raced in a juvenile race of meaning or the Triple Crown and yet they're great horses. Holy Bull flopped in the Derby and he was a great horse. People here have short memories about the impact of both Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex: Smarty Jones was the first horse to make the cover of Sports Illustrated in a generation and Alex was a serious candidate for SI's Sportsman of the Year Award. So I will end sarcastically: "Yeah, they were real overrated."

I never said anything about the Kentucky Derby or BC Juvenile in this thread regarding Smarty Jones or Afleet Alex so I really have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry if when someone disagrees with you it throws you into such a frenzy that you can't even differentiate among posters and are forced to make pathetic character judgements.

And furthermore, I really don't use Sports Illustrated as my guide to whether or not a horse is talented. But, hey, to each his own.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I never said anything about the Kentucky Derby or BC Juvenile in this thread regarding Smarty Jones or Afleet Alex so I really have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry if when someone disagrees with you it throws you into such a frenzy that you can't even differentiate among posters and are forced to make pathetic character judgements.

And furthermore, I really don't use Sports Illustrated as my guide to whether or not a horse is talented. But, hey, to each his own.

You were piling on with that poster so I presume that you endorse everthing that was said therein. Good to see that you're distancing yourself. Maybe you should distance yourself from the "Not so aFleet Alex" genius statement?