Best 2 year old ever POLL!!!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I guess Man o war would have to be considered also.

Oh, he is no Favorite Trick!

[Phalaris1913]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Phalaris -
Do you have more information on Barbizon?

Also, the crop of 1958 with First Landing and Intenionally was that overall pretty outstanding?

The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

The foal crop of 1954 - which included Bold Ruler, Round Table and Gallant Man, as well as Gen. Duke, thought by some to be better than any of them - is considered by many to be one of the best in modern racing. If you look at a list of the thoroughbred champions, you'll see that the champion 2YO of 1956 was not any of these but instead was Barbizon.

If the 1956 season had ended on October 26, that would not have been the case. On the evening of that date, Bold Ruler had won seven of eight starts, including the one-time champion maker, the Belmont Futurity; Barbizon had never even run in a true stakes event. But on Oct. 27, the picture changed. Bold Ruler had a disastrous outing in the Garden State, running up on the heels of another horse and finishing 17th, while Barbizon won. An effort to redeem his season in the Remsen further damaged Bold Ruler's reputation, as he reared at the start and was eased. At season's end, Bold Ruler had failed to be effective in a race longer than six and a half furlongs while Barbizon was five for six and had won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile of his day.

Barbizon never won another stakes race. In fact, the only time he ever again placed in a stakes race was in the Hutcheson. He ran in the FOY, Jersey (then Jersey Stakes, a 9f dirt race of significance run between the Preakness and Belmont), Kent, Leonard Richards, Laurance Armour and Arlington Classic as a 3YO, unplaced every time and never beaten less than seven lengths, and was unplaced in two stakes outings at 4 before his career ended.

First Landing won 10 of 11 starts at 2, including six stakes races at distances ranging from five furlongs to 1 1/16 miles. His only defeat as a 2YO was to Intentionally, who was first or second in 9 of 11 starts and won three stakes. Also among the best 2YOs of that crop was Tomy Lee, who won six of eight starts - unbeaten in six starts in California (four stakes after beginning his career on Jan. 7) and second under the wire in two starts back East: second by a neck to First Landing in the Champagne (though DQ'd to third for fouling Intentionally) and second by a head in the Garden State. Sword Dancer, future classic winner and HOY at 3, was third in the Garden State.

First Landing, Tomy Lee and Sword Dancer showed up for the classics, with Tomy Lee winning the Derby, with Sword Dancer second and First Landing third. Sword Dancer, as mentioned, had the best year in 1959: was subsequently second in the Preakness, and won six of his remaining seven starts at 3: the Met Mile, Belmont, Monmouth Handicap, Travers, Woodward and JCGC. First Landing was relatively off-and-on after his 2YO season, not dominating but usually running credibly and winning another nine races before the end of his 4YO season. Intentionally, champion sprinter of 1959, was steered clear of the classics and ran as late as 1962, finishing unplaced only once twice in 20 dirt starts at 3 and beyond.

Thanks for the info!!

[Sightseek]

Thank you very much for addressing my questions

[horseofcourse]

Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

[KirisClown]

I know she's not the best but...

The one that excited me most was... Flanders...

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

The one that excited me most was... Flanders...

OR

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Thanks Phalaris and I agree with your assessment of Favorite Trick compared to the past 2 yr old greats...but my feeling stands that in the last 10 or even 15 years what Favorite Trick did at 2 stands alone in this day of 2, 3 or 4 race campaigns for 2 yr olds. His 8 for 8 year winning some of the biggest races offered to 2 yr olds, including the biggest one is very unique in today's racing industry.

If you can find me a better more accomplished 2 yr old since 1990, go ahead. And that is some people's here only frame of reference.

He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

OR

option #2 for sure

[Phalaris1913]

That 1994 Juvey Fillies margin may not be quite as visually exciting as the 21-length victory in the Frizette (against, admittedly, the sort of horses that a really good horse should be beating by a city block), but given the four-length margin back to third and the caliber of the horse in such hot pursuit, it impresses me more in retrospect. Serena's Song was already a G1-caliber winner and after this race, she won nine of her next 11 starts (nine of nine at less than 10 furlongs), including the Jim Beam and and Haskell. There's a hidden accomplishment in there that usually isn't recognized: after finishing 16th in the Derby after setting the pace (stablemates Thunder Gulch and Timber Country finished first and third), she was back 13 days later, demolishing ordinary 3YO fillies in the Black-Eyed Susan by nine lengths. It's been my general observation that a lot of good, speedy fillies seem to lose something mentally and/or physically after a thumping defeat, but Serena's Song, at her best, was like a tank.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He should be applauded for his accomplishments as a 2 yo but this thread was about the best ever not just the last 15 years.

Of course, he isn't the best 2 yr old ever...but in all honesty, I would have no trouble with anyone placing him on a top 20 of all time juvy list. He certainly needs to be in this discussion of all time best 2 yr olds even if not the ultimate number 1.

[somerfrost]

Interesting thread and lots of good horses mentioned but really, only one mention of the greatest horse of all...Secretariat??? He has to be number one at two...certainly Colin, Native Dancer and many others were special but Secretariat is the gold standard! Favorite Trick was a wonderful two year old and deserves mention...and another one who has to be on any list...Count Fleet!

[Danzig]

colins perfect 12 for 12 season, including a record of .58 for 5 f, would be the gold standard.
count fleet and native dancer also deserve mention.

[prudery]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Nic,

She has more information on EVERYTHING... Probably the best informed source anywhere...

And '57 was THE crop. Best ever...

No, it was 1956---the birth year of First Landing, Tomy Lee, Sword Dancer, Royal Orbit , etc ... Colin's grandpa Domino was also a stellar 2. A recent two, outstanding against her own was Meadow Star. The Bid also had a busy and excellent year at two .

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Kasept

OR

This Flanders....

Maiden:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOvHU_XXdzA

Matron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBLTrlHKlfg

Bc Juv Fillies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MlRMUAmxmU

[somerfrost]

Of course Kincsem was 10-10 running in ten different cities in three different countries...on my list she would be second to Secretariat with Colin third.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Of course Kincsem was 10-10 running in ten different cities in three different countries...on my list she would be second to Secretariat with Colin third.

well, i'd always praise perfection over almost perfect, so secretariat would be third of the three.

[Phalaris1913]

Note that I haven't really offered my own opinions on this subject. There's more than one question at hand, really.

"Best (whatever)" is translated by different people as "Most talented" or "Most dominant" but the truth is, that's not always the same thing. A truly talented horse will dominate the opposition, but dominating opposition does not necessarily equate to extremely high talent. In fact, the less talented the opposition, the less talented you need to be to dominate it.

Therefore, looking at traditional measures of dominance (win record, winning margins, etc) is a start, not the end, of answering the question. If that's all it were, one could say, for example, that since Hindoo won 19 straight races at 3 in 1881 (counting a walkover), he must be the best US 3YO ever. Or that by beating one rival by whatever extreme margin that it really was, Man o' War proved in the Lawrence Realization that he was the best US 3YO ever. Of course these were both pretty good 3YOs, but IMHO as a racing observer and historian, that's barely the beginning of answering the question of "who was the best US 3YO?"

A lot of people seem to have real trouble dealing with the truth that winning many races or winning races by large margins is, in itself, not proof of greatness. All it is is proof that said horse is better than what walked into the gate next to him. Beating them a lot means that he's consistently better than these; winning by a lot means that he's much better than these. But there's a huge question being begged that as far as I'm concerned means as much as, if not more, than merely noting that this horse is better than the opposition and that is, how good IS the opposition?

Horse racing is inherently subjective, every race affected by countless variables, so there's never going to be answers that are 100 percent definitive, 100 percent provable, 100 percent reproducible - that is, answers that will satisfy the scientist in me. And that's why I shy away from declaring "best evers" and creating "top x" lists, because - honestly - the moment you rank two horses that didn't run against each other a number of times, what you're ranking is your opinion, not the relative talent of the horses.

That's not to say that it's not worth wondering and debating "best evers." Beyond the gambling aspect, that's one of the great purposes of horse racing - to experience horses so good that they must find their comparison in history, not in flesh-and-blood rivals. But I have to point out that if you're going to do that with any sort of validity, as soon as you think about what a horse accomplished, you have to do what you can to put it in perspective by asking yourself what it was accomplished against. How good was the opposition? What did they win, and against whom? When did they do it? Did a given rival horse put forth a credible effort on the meeting in question? When you find a horse competing against rivals who themselves won many comparable races over similar conditions in a reasonably close time frame and which offered a representative effort on the day they met, it changes everything. A narrow margin against high-class, in-form opposition means a lot more, IMHO, than a large winning margin against vastly inferior rivals. A few decent losses against really good rivals makes for a better race record than one with virtually no defeats compiled against utter nonentities.

That's the view I choose to take. I admit that I have exacting standards, and my standards, based upon horses doing enough to actually have worthwhile established form, are increasingly archaic, but this is where I stand.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Phalaris1913

Note that I haven't really offered my own opinions on this subject. There's more than one question at hand, really.

"Best (whatever)" is translated by different people as "Most talented" or "Most dominant" but the truth is, that's not always the same thing. A truly talented horse will dominate the opposition, but dominating opposition does not necessarily equate to extremely high talent. In fact, the less talented the opposition, the less talented you need to be to dominate it.

Therefore, looking at traditional measures of dominance (win record, winning margins, etc) is a start, not the end, of answering the question. If that's all it were, one could say, for example, that since Hindoo won 19 straight races at 3 in 1881 (counting a walkover), he must be the best US 3YO ever. Or that by beating one rival by whatever extreme margin that it really was, Man o' War proved in the Lawrence Realization that he was the best US 3YO ever. Of course these were both pretty good 3YOs, but IMHO as a racing observer and historian, that's barely the beginning of answering the question of "who was the best US 3YO?"

A lot of people seem to have real trouble dealing with the truth that winning many races or winning races by large margins is, in itself, not proof of greatness. All it is is proof that said horse is better than what walked into the gate next to him. Beating them a lot means that he's consistently better than these; winning by a lot means that he's much better than these. But there's a huge question being begged that as far as I'm concerned means as much as, if not more, than merely noting that this horse is better than the opposition and that is, how good IS the opposition?

Horse racing is inherently subjective, every race affected by countless variables, so there's never going to be answers that are 100 percent definitive, 100 percent provable, 100 percent reproducible - that is, answers that will satisfy the scientist in me. And that's why I shy away from declaring "best evers" and creating "top x" lists, because - honestly - the moment you rank two horses that didn't run against each other a number of times, what you're ranking is your opinion, not the relative talent of the horses.

That's not to say that it's not worth wondering and debating "best evers." Beyond the gambling aspect, that's one of the great purposes of horse racing - to experience horses so good that they must find their comparison in history, not in flesh-and-blood rivals. But I have to point out that if you're going to do that with any sort of validity, as soon as you think about what a horse accomplished, you have to do what you can to put it in perspective by asking yourself what it was accomplished against. How good was the opposition? What did they win, and against whom? When did they do it? Did a given rival horse put forth a credible effort on the meeting in question? When you find a horse competing against rivals who themselves won many comparable races over similar conditions in a reasonably close time frame and which offered a representative effort on the day they met, it changes everything. A narrow margin against high-class, in-form opposition means a lot more, IMHO, than a large winning margin against vastly inferior rivals. A few decent losses against really good rivals makes for a better race record than one with virtually no defeats compiled against utter nonentities.

That's the view I choose to take. I admit that I have exacting standards, and my standards, based upon horses doing enough to actually have worthwhile established form, are increasingly archaic, but this is where I stand.

All excellent points. For some reason, I think that horses who face the "inferior" or crap opposition (alledgedly!) get a bad rap as the old argument goes...the horse can't control who goes into the starting gate against him/her. And any horse that goes undefeated for a somewhat extended period be it Seattle Slew, Smarty Jones, Favorite Trick, Barbaro, will face that same argument of whom did they beat. And there is certainly legitimacy to it without question.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

All excellent points. For some reason, I think that horses who face the "inferior" or crap opposition (alledgedly!) get a bad rap as the old argument goes...the horse can't control who goes into the starting gate against him/her. And any horse that goes undefeated for a somewhat extended period be it Seattle Slew, Smarty Jones, Favorite Trick, Barbaro, will face that same argument of whom did they beat. And there is certainly legitimacy to it without question.

True...but measuring "who did they beat" with 2 year olds is even harder since so much changes between 2-3 (case in point of course was Favorite Trick). Anytime I print my list of "greatest ever" I get arguments on both my #1's...Secretariat because he did lose races, Kincsem cause she won 54 in a row but at a time when judging her competion is hard. Secretariat gets the ranking because I saw with my own eyes something I've never seen close to equaled, Kincsem cause...well, lots of reasons...54-54 lifetime, traveled all over Europe at a time when travel was extremely difficult, gave huge weight to the "best" male horses in Europe at the time, carried as much as 168 pounds over a distance...still, arguments can always be made! MOW's 100 length win in the Lawrence Realization was against one horse...a cheap horse named Hoodwink who was probably claiming level and entered as a favor to avoid the walkover so how can anyone even consider that win?