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  #61  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:51 PM
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philcski philcski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I've always felt that the most successful race mares don't become good producers because of all the things that are pumped into their systems to get them to the top racing levels. I think this list just goes to show how special a filly Serena's Song really was. Same for Personal Ensign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway
Agree 100% on both points.

Nothing against Cigar, who was a true champion and brought his A game every time, but the group you offer would blow his doors off.

You didn't even include those such as Tiznow, Skip Away, Awesome Again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Smarty Jones???? Discreet Cat??? Surely you jest.
Smarty Jones would have beaten Cigar at any distance on any track.
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  #62  
Old 08-29-2007, 10:59 PM
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Where Cigar gains stature is in the fact that he brought it time after time. He traveled. He carried some weight. He was ultra-consistent and if u are to ask me would I take him over some of the other horses I mentioned, I would based on those factors alone. I'd rather have a horse that will give me a 115 race every time over one that is just as capable of giving me a 125 as he is a 105. So for an extended period of sustained top level racing, Cigar moves way up the list. But if u are to take all of the horses and take their best two or three races and say which horses had the most ability, Cigar is much further down the list than his list of accomplishments would suggest.
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  #63  
Old 08-29-2007, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
If Cigar is the best horse of the last 30 years, I must have been watching a different sport than thoroughbred horse racing. Most accomplished? That I could go with. But best? Not even close. In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway

Invasor will mow all of them down.
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  #64  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eajinabi
Invasor will mow all of them down.
i think that's the first horse mentioned in this entire thread that cigar would actually beat.
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  #65  
Old 08-30-2007, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
i think that's the first horse mentioned in this entire thread that cigar would actually beat.

Don't forget... Afleet Alex was mentioned...
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  #66  
Old 08-30-2007, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
The sport can't take advantage of any groundswell because the swell flattens out before it can mount to anything.
Good point.

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More often than not, u will end up looking like a fool for promoting a horse that doesn't show up.
True concern, however I'd guess the lack of network interest in horse racing is based more upon the terrible ratings horse racing routinely receives no matter the actual content (can't sell ad time).

I always get excited when horse racing has a David Beckham celebrity (Cigar, Funny Cide, Smarty Jones) to fill some seats and pique interest, even if those seats are filled with butts that wouldn't recognize a filly from a colt, and won't be there mid-winter at Aqueduct. You have to start somewhere when making new fans.

But when the sport gets one of those PR gifts (Street Sense, Borel, and Nafzger could have been a great one, spanning a years time!), horse racing pretty much ignores everyone not already within the loop.
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  #67  
Old 08-30-2007, 07:28 AM
Slewbopper Slewbopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
much the same could be said about winning colors and open mind.

is there any connection between the 3?
Dwayne
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  #68  
Old 08-30-2007, 07:35 AM
Slewbopper Slewbopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
In no order and off the top of my head, who'd I'd place ahead of him:

Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Java Gold, Alysheba, Lost Code, King Glorious, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Holy Bull, Gentlemen, Lammtarra, Candy Ride, Ghostzapper, Point Given, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Giant's Causeway
I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.
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  #69  
Old 08-30-2007, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
much the same could be said about winning colors and open mind.

is there any connection between the 3?

OH DON'T MAKE ME BEYOTCH SLAP YOU. DON'T YOU DISS ON MY GIRL WINNING COLORS.
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  #70  
Old 08-30-2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
Speaking realistically about something isn't dissing it.

correct, dissing would be the fact she's lucky Risen Star got a bad ride...lol

When both as a broodmare had a top earner around 500k and nothing else isn't dissing. Her top earner did have a decent earner in Japan sired by Sunday Silence.
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  #71  
Old 08-30-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffymommy
OH DON'T MAKE ME BEYOTCH SLAP YOU. DON'T YOU DISS ON MY GIRL WINNING COLORS.
are you kidding me? i loved that filly. i even bet her in the derby, with my friend telling me when she was 2 there was no way she'd lose the derby!
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  #72  
Old 08-30-2007, 02:58 PM
alysheba4 alysheba4 is offline
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risen star, now that was an underated horse...........if he didnt get a hack job for a ride in the derby he would have won that race.
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  #73  
Old 08-30-2007, 06:20 PM
horseofcourse horseofcourse is offline
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I think Rags to Riches grueling summer of races is bringing all kinds of new fans to the sport. I can't even remember what she looks like!! (this is in relation to the post that said Cigar brought many new fans to the sport!)

On the topic of Cigar, I think he is better than he is being given credit for than most on this thread. I think KG lists way too many on his list. To me the best thing a horse can do is race a lot and win a lot. Cigar did that and most others listed don't. To me that is like saying Kevin Kouzmanoff is the best player in major league baseball, because the first pitch he saw as a big leaguer last year he hit a grand slam home run. And that just isn't true stating he is the best. But how many hall of famers hit the first pitch they saw for a grand slam?? Just because Ghostzapper could roll out 120 plus Beyers at will does not make him better than Cigar in my opinion. Just faster. HE had more grade 1 wins than Ghostzapper had starts. Going back 30 years picking up Affirmed and Bid and others...no way is he the best. But 25 years there are not too many better in my opinion. Some of the late 80s ones like Alysheba, and EG..SS perhaps, but I'm not too sure. Easy Goer and Sunday Silence did nothing as older horses.
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  #74  
Old 08-30-2007, 06:21 PM
robfla robfla is offline
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the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs
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  #75  
Old 08-30-2007, 06:41 PM
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I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.
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  #76  
Old 08-30-2007, 07:12 PM
Danzig Danzig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmayjr
I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.
i'd be happier if i saw horses more durable than him. but when you read about half ours retiring after his abbreviated career, you have to wonder....
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  #77  
Old 08-30-2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?
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  #78  
Old 08-30-2007, 08:03 PM
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I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.
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  #79  
Old 08-30-2007, 10:48 PM
robfla robfla is offline
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as much as i like smarty - maybe at 7f or a mile... but cigar had that burst of speed at the 3/8 pole that just inhaled the field when he went 9-10f.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?
oh, and charlie.. the avatar is clear as a bell.. a naked blonde, don't know why YOU can't see it
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  #80  
Old 08-31-2007, 07:27 AM
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King Glorious King Glorious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewbopper
I was a Bull fan so have no great love for Cigar, but do respect what he did. How can you place horses like Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Discreet Cat, and Giant's Causeway ahead of Cigar? None of them ran more than 10 races in their careers. Cigar had more than that many G1 wins.
Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.
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Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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