Worse KY Derby winner...

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I was looking at a broodmare today at the Keeneland sale. Liked her pedigree, thought she had pretty good conformation. May be in my price range. Sounds good until I saw she was in foal to Giacomo. I dont want to pay to raise one of those so I passed.

Ya could have given the baby to me. My hubby loves Giacomo. Won him a lot on Derby day.

By the way, I had Closing Argument. I NEVER heard the end of it from him that his horse beat mine!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Volponi sired another $60 turf winner today.

From a limited sample so far, his horses have run excellent on turf, fairly decent on synthetic, and just plain awful on dirt.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Volponi sired another $60 turf winner today.

From a limited sample so far, his horses have run excellent on turf, fairly decent on synthetic, and just plain awful on dirt.

makes 3 of his firsters (out of 9?) to win their turf debut, right?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

3-for-10 actually - because their was another turf debuter of his in the race - whom I sadly bet.

He's 5-for-18 overall with turfers - one of which took a Grade 3 stake by open lengths at 17/1 odds after breaking her maiden in debut on the turf at 8/1.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

3-for-10 actually - because their was another turf debuter of his in the race - whom I sadly bet.

He's 5-for-18 overall with turfers - one of which took a Grade 3 stake by open lengths at 17/1 odds after breaking her maiden in debut on the turf at 8/1.

I actually used Lava Cat in the tail end of my pick 3 today (one of the 4 I used). By dumb luck, I singled North Country, but even more stupidy came oozing from my brain when I tried to beat both Roi and Leo in the feature. Yet another reason I consistently lose money at this game. I surely couldnt have used the $1k that the pick 3 ended up paying.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by JJP

Your exactly right. I couldn't believe how overrated he was. But after Giacomo, a new standard for incompetence was set.

Now if we went back 25 years to 1982, Gato Del Sol might've been the worst of all.

Goto Del SLOW was the worst that I remember, but any Kentucky Derby winner is at the top of his class and I will take that any day.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think if you asked people which Derby winner had the lowest lifetime top Beyer - few people would get the answer right.

It's Charismatic - who had a 108 career top - one point less than Giacomo and Sea Hero.

I guess something of a rational case could be made for Charismatic as the worst Derby winner over that time.

In the first ten starts of his career - he never ran a Beyer higher than 85 - was twice offered up for claiming tags - and never even exceeded the 95 level until April 18th.

He got FIRECRACKER HOT with one of the most improbable wins I've ever seen on the Derby Trail with an authetic 108 Beyer and eye-brow raising move rarely made over Keeneland's dirt when he won the Lexington at 12/1. Followed that mysterious big race up with a Derby win at 31/1, a Preakness win at 8/1, and than came apart in the Belmont.

The case for him being the worst would be 'he was a terrible horse all the way up till Mid-April of his 3yo season, and though he punched out four strong races in seven weeks including a 3rd in the Belmont Stakes - he wasn't sound enough to make it through the triple crown.

I think you'd have to hold his injury against him to make him the worst ever though.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think if you asked people which Derby winner had the lowest lifetime top Beyer - few people would get the answer right.

It's Charismatic - who had a 108 career top - one point less than Giacomo and Sea Hero.

I guess something of a rational case could be made for Charismatic as the worst Derby winner over that time.

In the first ten starts of his career - he never ran a Beyer higher than 85 - was twice offered up for claiming tags - and never even exceeded the 95 level until April 18th.

He got FIRECRACKER HOT with one of the most improbable wins I've ever seen on the Derby Trail with an authetic 108 Beyer and eye-brow raising move rarely made over Keeneland's dirt when he won the Lexington at 12/1. Followed that mysterious big race up with a Derby win at 31/1, a Preakness win at 8/1, and than came apart in the Belmont.

The case for him being the worst would be 'he was a terrible horse all the way up till Mid-April of his 3yo season, and though he punched out four strong races in seven weeks including a 3rd in the Belmont Stakes - he wasn't sound enough to make it through the triple crown.

I think you'd have to hold his injury against him to make him the worst ever though.

He ran pretty well when he "came apart."

Beyer figures being what they are, I can't agree with any argument stating Charismatic was the worst Derby winner ever. I also can't hold the injury against him.

If you're talking about horses who just got good at the right time and benefited from either weak crops or perfect setups, wouldn't War Emblem come up? I know he got a 112 in a bias-aided win at Sportsman's, but before that he was nothing special. All he did after winning two legs of the Triple Crown was go gate to wire in the Haskell in a paceless race where the track took him home.

Maybe I just never liked War Emblem.

NT

[letswastemoney]

I think Charismatic would have had a solid career if he didn't get injured. His sibling Tossofthecoin picked up several checks in G1s as an older horse.

Then again if Charismatic didn't get injured he would have been retired probably anyway.....so I dunno

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think anyone who was around and following the game closely in '99 has to remember how disgracefully bad of a horse Charismatic was going into the Lexington.

The fact that he was only 44/1 in the Santa Anita Derby was a joke in itself...and he got drubbed pretty good by the blah Generally Challenged. He was 4th beaten 8+ to him.

'99 was a fairly weak year. I believe Steven Got Even would have been the Derby favorite that year, if not for the fact that Generally Challenged and Excellent Meeting were coupled in the betting.

War Emblem was a better horse than Charismatic. He ran several very good races. His win in the Preakness was outstanding - because he proved he could win inspite of taking all the early heat and not getting anything his way.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Tiago gonna prove to be a fluke??

You can have him too.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think anyone who was around and following the game closely in '99 has to remember how disgracefully bad of a horse Charismatic was going into the Lexington.

The fact that he was only 44/1 in the Santa Anita Derby was a joke in itself...and he got drubbed pretty good by the blah Generally Challenged. He was 4th beaten 8+ to him.

'99 was a fairly weak year. I believe Steven Got Even would have been the Derby favorite that year, if not for the fact that Generally Challenged and Excellent Meeting were coupled in the betting.

War Emblem was a better horse than Charismatic. He ran several very good races. His win in the Preakness was outstanding - because he proved he could win inspite of taking all the early heat and not getting anything his way.

I was following the game closely and remember vividly Charismatic's past performances. What I said was that Charismatic hit his stride in the Lexington and then followed that effort up with a good Derby and good Preakness. Calling him the worst Derby winner ever can only be done by penalizing him for his career ending prematurely. I know that he was a claimer and that he had few good speed figures prior to the Derby, but he ran three very good races in a row and then was brave in defeat in the Belmont.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

At the time - it seemed kind of suspicous to me how he got so magically good so fast - and than was broke down seven weeks later.

But I agree, his three triple crown races were certainly better than Sea Hero's and Giacomo's ... and it's not like either of that dynamic duo did a whole lot otherwise.

For seven weeks - Charismatic was a rock solid horse.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

At the time - it seemed kind of suspicous to me how he got so magically good so fast - and than was broke down seven weeks later.

But I agree, his three triple crown races were certainly better than Sea Hero's and Giacomo's ... and it's not like either of that dynamic duo did a whole lot otherwise.

For seven weeks - Charismatic was a rock solid horse.

Agreed- undoubtedly some D. Wayne magic really came through.

NT

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by Holland Hacker

I'm gonna have to go with Lil E. Tee. in 1992.

I agree with Andy that Sea Hero was a solid performer and I'm reminded of that every time I visit the Paddock a Saratoga.

I wish I could buy just one like Lil E. Tee, who sold for a mere two thousand bucks as a yearling. 14 starts (7-4-1) earning 1.4 mil...."he deed enuff"

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I know of no record that shows Lil E. Tee selling for 2K as a yearling.

He did sell for 25K at the OBS April 2yo sale, and I know the trainer who bought him out of that sale.

After one monster maiden win and a subsequent private sale, he lossed him.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

He ran pretty well when he "came apart."

Beyer figures being what they are, I can't agree with any argument stating Charismatic was the worst Derby winner ever. I also can't hold the injury against him.

If you're talking about horses who just got good at the right time and benefited from either weak crops or perfect setups, wouldn't War Emblem come up? I know he got a 112 in a bias-aided win at Sportsman's, but before that he was nothing special. All he did after winning two legs of the Triple Crown was go gate to wire in the Haskell in a paceless race where the track took him home.

Maybe I just never liked War Emblem.

NT

The win at Sportsman's wasn't bias aided. I guess in this age of synthetic, any speed win over real dirt gets lumped in as "bias-aided".

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I know of no record that shows Lil E. Tee selling for 2K as a yearling.

He did sell for 25K at the OBS April 2yo sale, and I know the trainer who bought him out of that sale.

After one monster maiden win and a subsequent private sale, he lossed him.

DrugS...Google "Lil E. Tee" and click on the Wikipedia link. Story is there. I remember reading it when it ran in the local paper before his Jim Beam win at Turfway Park.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You obviously don't know about 1933 Kentucky Derby winner Brokers Tip.

His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1 ... and he is the only horse in history who's only career win came in the Derby.

He won the race in controvesial fashion...his jockey and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were fighting each other through the lane.

It's a story almost as remarkably absurd as Sir Barton....

A horse who entered the Kentucky Derby as a maiden, off of a 8 month layoff, and only running to serve the purpose as a pace setting rabbit for his stablemate. He runs off and wins by 5. Takes the Preakness next out, followed by the Withers, and than the Belmont.

From hopeless maiden rabbit at post time on May 10th - to the first horse to sweep the later to be named Triple Crown on June 11th.

All of which points out how the status of the Kentucky Derby has changed since those days. When Sir Barton ran, the leading American classic was the Belmont S, the Kentucky Derby was a prep race like the Florida Derby or the Blue Grass (neither of which were around then). Also, Sir Barton had finished second in the biggest 2yo stakes race, The Futurity, where maidens got a tremendous weight break so that trainers often made sure their runners were still maidens. Sounds like the trainer was using the Derby to leg-up Sir Barton for later races by having him set the pace, not because he doubted the horse's ability.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JJP

The win at Sportsman's wasn't bias aided. I guess in this age of synthetic, any speed win over real dirt gets lumped in as "bias-aided".

No that's more from Sportsman's having one of the most notoriously speed-biased surfaces, especially going two turns.

NT