Three New BC Races

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Riot

Alot of you are doing exactly what you diss the TB industry for doing - looking solely at Breeders Cup day.

That's what the thread is about.

And don't sell us short....many of us are acutely aware, and have pointed out, how detrimental the BC is to the rest of the game.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You are right and Andy really was. Honestly, when I first got into horse racing, I thought the Breeders Cup was great. Racing's best competing to see who was the best. I have no idea what it is now, but it's not that.

Exactly.

[Riot]

That's what the thread is about. And don't sell us short....many of us are acutely aware, and have pointed out, how detrimental the BC is to the rest of the game.

I absolutely agree with that last. But that doesn't mean I don't desire more races throughout the year to be available at over a 1 1/6 miles, and I would rather see that added to a Friday, than more sprints.

You've got 16 minutes to post, you revved up for action? I expect a fast break, a confident rail lead, and head-to-head fighting off of all contenders.

How long can you last? A mile, or longer?

[SentToStud]

Breeders Cup, Ltd. itself must be wildly profitable for them to be tossing about $3-4 million at the new and second year races next year. It's just too bad this big and getting bigger chunk of the public's betting dollars are going into the pockets of the BC people at the expense of the greater good of the sport.

God forbid some of the profits generated in the industry be spent on frivolities such as modern tote systems that stop betting on a timely basis or moderating takeout.

[Riot]

I see your point, but do you really think the race was created as a way to try and take the speed out of the breed? It's a nice thought and all, but I don't believe it for a second

Who knows why they did what they did this year, with Friday. It's crazy.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

God forbid some of the profits generated in the industry be spent on frivolities such as modern tote systems that stop betting on a timely basis or moderating takeout.

It's thinking like this that will forever leave you on the outside looking in.

[Travis Stone]

From a business perspective, the Friday races were a huge success.

I wonder if they considered the Filly & Mare Turf Mile?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

From a business perspective, the Friday races were a huge success.

Unless you accept at least the possibility that the diluted races on Saturday, at least partially due to Friday's races, were what led to the substantial decrease in handle on the big day.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Unless you accept at least the possibility that the diluted races on Saturday, at least partially due to Friday's races, were what led to the substantial decrease in handle on the big day.

Who besides maybe Corinthian or Discreet Cat ran on Friday instead of Sat?

The fact that the long turf races were underfilled may have been more of a contributor to the handle decrease.

[blackthroatedwind]

La Traviata, Dream Rush, and Diamond Stripes off the top of my head.

[brockguy]

turf sprint - who will show up? its a great idea in theory but i cant see it getting the quality of the HK sprint.
dirt marathon - terrible name, most of the top quality 12f horses are top quality 10f horses anyway..
juvi turf fillies - turf race didnt look great this year, this race could be awful..

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

I have to say that i agree with almost everything you say here. As you say, people are complaining when races are dropped in distance, which is most likely to do with the breeders and their wants/needs. Now people also complain with longer distance races.

However, i'm not sure this kind of race should be on the BC, when the schedule is being packed full so it seems.

More 12 furlong races by all means, but i'm not sure if the BC is the right place, not while they continue to add races like they are going out of fashion.

I agree there. People complain if races are shortened, they complain if races are lengthened. Some complain that the rest of the world seems more interested in turf and we're crazy for being dirt-centric, then others get upset at the idea that turf is getting more play because the foundation is just not there yet. I understand the dilution issue if you cover every conceivable distance and surface, that's absolutely a concern. I do think we'll have some lousy fields potentially but the BC folks are looking at their job glass half full (of handle, hopes and dreams, more handle...) and is it really their fault many owners, trainers, and breeders aren't thinking about getting a horse all year to the end of the year to run a championship race and decide instead to tip toe with their hothouse horses? They used to have that mile and a half on dirt distance in mind, at least some did anyway. As for who's going to win that 1 1/2 (that I would've preferred to see at 1 3/4 to ideally 2 miles or so) I am actually a little intrigued by the situation in which they've put themselves. Not sold but intrigued. I'm not going to complain about this one, I've been wanting more route races, I'm gonna hush and let them give me one. I will however do like I do with the juvenile turf preps and critique the lead up. Can't just throw those things into a vacuum. Speaking of which you just knew they'd pad the schedule once the 3 races came on Friday...I knew they couldn't help themselves and were eying this as a KY Oaks-day style deal but not just for the ladies.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

But, there's really a great deal of hypocracy to go around. Considering it was the BC itself that caused races to be cut back in distance it is a real side splitter that they now seek to create a race for the very types they helped diminish. Oh the great BC knows both benevolance and irony.....don't they?

Amen. There's so much irony I don't know where to look. The industry's getting so full of blame--one side blames the other and then turns around and causes part of the problem. It's almost becoming a chicken and the egg deal right now. The downfall of stamina definitely coincided with the BC era but that was also the glut in the stallion market right? Bubble days with the yearling purchases,etc I mean. That played a role in 'bubble'-wrapping the expensive purchases and protecting them from too much pesky racing and wear and tear. (sarcasm) These animals cost money don'tcha know. Is the argument that the BC fed into the bubble-fest? You'll have to forgive my slight obliviousness and educated guess at the connection. I wasn't really terribly focused on adult matters at that age. Not to date the rest of you but some folks here have more of a first hand experience of the change in the industry. It helps to have things put in context for us spring chickens.

Originally Posted by miraja2

Man, you were spot on in this prediction.
People in this thread have been so busy complaining about the 12f race that they have missed how absolutely stupid it is to have a juvenile turf race for filles. How completely ridiculous can you get?

Yup, the first thing I chuckled at was the going ape over the 12f when my reaction was to the juvenile turf race for fillies. Surely there's enough spots in the juvenile turf and not much difference in the sexes at that age that you'll get a fuller field with just the one. That's not crazy right? Are people that afraid to go co-ed on turf at 2? Turf mares face boys a lot more in Europe, really it's in our interest if they're trying to follow that model to just throw em all in the pot and start it young. I like the concept of the Breeders' Cup, not gonna lie, I just feel execution's an issue because there are so many variables and breeding dollars are just nuts. I'll applaud the effort to promote turf and distance here because I've always thought that would be a good idea (though through the BC, that's a whole can of worms) and I'll spend the next few years watching in between my fingers like you do with scenes in movies where you really don't know if you're gonna enjoy the thing but you can't quite help yourself.

Let's not joke about the Greys only race thing. Some folks would truly jump at it.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who besides maybe Corinthian or Discreet Cat ran on Friday instead of Sat?

The fact that the long turf races were underfilled may have been more of a contributor to the handle decrease.

I thought he meant more a dilution in the sense that the BC wagering dollars were spread out across two days instead of one. Clearly most people who bet on the first day and lost had less to wager on the second day. just my guess. It was true in my case anyway.

[Cannon Shell]

Maybe I am being naive but why the all personal anomisity toward the Breeders Cup? I understand what many of you are saying but the fact is the ship has sailed on mny of these subjects like the over focus on the Breeders Cup to the detriment of some traditional races. It is like bitching about the DH in baseball or 3 point line in basketball.

As an owner/trainer I can say that it is hard not to appreciate the addition of a turf sprint or 2 year old filly turf race. I'm sure many of you would think the same if you owned a horse that might possibly be good enough to compete in one of these new races.

As discussed in another far too long thread I can't see why anyone would bitch about the purses for these races being too big or the fact that the fields will be weak or not up to BC quality. There are tons of races that come up weak or with short fields throughout the year that no one call for the removal of. For instance most graded non turf races run in California.

The philosophical reasons behind the complaints are baffling to me. So what if we have a turf sprint champion? Or a 2 year old turf champion. Or a champion miler? What difference does it make to your bankroll or enjoyment of the game? I personally thought Matt Holiday should have been the NL MVP but he when Rollins got it I didn't say that baseball sucks and it is a conspiracy. I mean I dont agree, it was close and I hadn't thought about it until I wrote this since I am trying to think like a fan instead of a participant.

The "dirt" marathon seems like a silly idea but who really cares? There is constant harping about the shortening of the major races but when they put this kind of race in (though it seems very arbitrary and like as Andy said an attention deflector) everybody is against it or unbelieveable says it is too short.

The Breeders Cup is far from a perfect organization and some of the things they do are certainly debatable but I can only see one reason why you guys should bitch about the addition of these races and no one has brought it up yet.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I thought he meant more a dilution in the sense that the BC wagering dollars were spread out across two days instead of one. Clearly most people who bet on the first day and lost had less to wager on the second day. just my guess. It was true in my case anyway.

Actually I meant it the way Chuck interpreted it....but your comments may make more sense.

[Riot]

The downfall of stamina definitely coincided with the BC era but that was also the glut in the stallion market right?

When I think, "home run horse", I think of a horse that wins on the track. I am wrong.

In this weeks issue of Blood-Horse:

"Forestry - Home Run Sire"

"The long-ball home run in the Thoroughbred business is the Stallion Prospect. Two of the hottest Sire Prospects on the horizon, who cumulatively stand to generate over $5 Million in income this next year alone, are by Storm Cat's sensationally consistent home run son Forestry."

The home run in the TB business is not an exceptional race horse, not even a proven stallion - it is a stallion "prospect".

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually I meant it the way Chuck interpreted it....but your comments may make more sense.

weather and a lack of good horses..imo.. if the product is good enough we will bet..hell look at the delta crock pot..im also thinking s.a. will attract a better euro contingent.. thus bringing a "hatton" like pump to the pools but win and your in must go.........

[blackthroatedwind]

People are " bitching ", Chuck, because it's a topic of interest. The BC has run roughshod over major racing to the point of making a year of once historically great racing almost superfluous. Luckily, these new races won't make many races meaningless because there are absolutely no races to substantiate them.

It is the BC that named themselves the " World Championship " races and now they are making supposed championships for divisions that barely exist and only do so at a very mediocre level. We have every right to bitch about how preposterous they are.

None of this particularly affects me personally as I deal with racing on a day to day level and from a betting standpoint these major races have very little affect on me. However, from the standpoint of a fan of the game, which I am, I hate to see the BC further marginalize racing.

[pmayjr]

Originally Posted by justindew

$1 Million BC Turf Sprint (6.5 furlongs)
$1 Million BC Juvenile Fillies Turf (1 mile)
$500,000 BC Dirt Marathon (1 1/2 miles)

Is it proven that the Truf Sprint will be 6.5f? Or will it bhe 5-6f? I think it should be 6.5f if they hold it as SA. As I said before when this subject was brought up a few weeks ago, the
the "Breeders Cup Down-the-Hill-Mil" sounds like the coolest name ever. 6.5f seems to be a funky distance anywhere else though.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

People are " bitching ", Chuck, because it's a topic of interest. The BC has run roughshod over major racing to the point of making a year of once historically great racing almost superfluous. Luckily, these new races won't make many races meaningless because there are absolutely no races to substantiate them.

It is the BC that named themselves the " World Championship " races and now they are making supposed championships for divisions that barely exist and only do so at a very mediocre level. We have every right to bitch about how preposterous they are.

None of this particularly affects me personally as I deal with racing on a day to day level and from a betting standpoint these major races have very little affect on me. However, from the standpoint of a fan of the game, which I am, I hate to see the BC further marginalize racing.

I think it's funny that you continue to take the word "championships" so literally in this case.

I still cant see how a fillies turf race or turf sprint hurts the sport or marginalizes it. It is not like Saratoga is going to flip the Hopefull with the With Distinction or drop the Forgeo for a turf sprint.