3 year old filly Eclipse?

[Danzig]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/article/47177.htm

she hasn't had a break all year, so they're stopping on her. she may run in '09. i hope she returns, but that has no bearing i'm sure!!

[Betsy]

eh, I don't care that everyone knows that I love AP Indy. That doesn't bother me. It only bothers me (and not just when it comes to horse racing) when people think I can't be objective because of my rooting interest.

I think I was being objective in this case, but it's apparent that I was probably the only one who thought so. Thus, I haven't reposted in this thread. I just don't like banging my head against the wall, ,especially when posting on message boards is supposed to be relaxing and fun. It's not fun when I have to constantly explain myself.

[RolloTomasi]

I thought the logic was flawed from the get-go.

Trying to present Proud Spell's late season loss in the Cotillion (to a potential up-and-comer within the division no less) as though it was a defining race in her campaign is preposterous when the very same filly, one start earlier stuck it to a previously untested, could-be-any-kind Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with a race setup that favored the latter.

What we got in the stretch at Saratoga was the defining race for the division. One filly, all heart and willing to lay her body down pole after pole, and the other her perfect foil, of limitless talent and pedigree but lacking in true mettle (typical of the stallion and so many of his offspring).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with race setup that favored the latter.

I have to disagree big time on the race setup favoring Music Note in the Alabama.

I thought Little Belle was crawling on an unpressured lead - and was clearly the setup horse in there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I have to disagree big time on the race setup favoring Music Note in the Alabama.

I thought Little Belle was crawling on an unpressured lead - and was clearly the setup horse in there.

Little Belle (Music Note's stablemate as you know) did get an upressured lead, which, when the running really started gave Proud Spell a little more work to do to establish a clear lead at the top of the stretch.

Music Note got to bide her time and move for the front as she pleased, just as she did in the CCA Oaks. Only this time, instead of rocketing away past the hopeless front markers, she cruised up alongside a game racehorse that she clearly had the better of, got looked in the eye, and gave it up.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I came away with a different impression of that race than you did.

I've never been a believer that trailing the field through soft fractions and having to come around was an advantage.

I didn't think it was a conclusive win at all for PS - and certainly MN's win in their prior meeting was very inconclusive because of real bad trips... where I thought the Alabama was just a race where the bum Little Belle had the dreamiest of trips and PS had a slight tactical advantage on MN.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

But,I'd love to see the Dutrow horse replicate her last 2 somewhere other than Delaware or Philadelphia. I won't hold my breath.

Does Tony Dutrow do well in NY? I'm not sure. Either way, I have a feeling a lot of Mercedes Stable horses will be abandoning CA for the East Coast in the next few months, if they haven't come already.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I came away with a different impression of that race than you did.

I've never been a believer that trailing the field through soft fractions and having to come around was an advantage.

I didn't think it was a conclusive win at all for PS - and certainly MN's win in their prior meeting was very inconclusive because of real bad trips... where I thought the Alabama was just a race where the bum Little Belle had the dreamiest of trips and PS had a slight tactical advantage on MN.

That's a fair assesment. It kind of depends on how much talent you think Little Belle has (I would say she has some) and whether or not you think Music Note needs a bit of pace up front to do her best running. Personally, I get the impression that she could pretty much be spotted anywhere early in a race.

Music Note seemed to get more or less the same trip she did in both the prior CCA Oaks and the subsequent Gazelle, races that she demolished. Visually, she looked like she'd run right by Proud Spell, but didn't for whatever reason.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I actually thought you were being objective. Now, that said I thought the question BTW asked was a fair one. And when you seemed to get upset about it, I kind of changed my mind. There's nothing wrong with not being objective when it comes to something you love. But, if you are going to make it obvious that you are a fan of certain horses because of their sire. It's only natural for people to assume when you discuss such horses, that you are being a bit biased.

Either way, nothing to get too upset about. I don't think anyone was trying to be rude or mean. Just trying to see if the sires were reversed, if you would still feel the same way. I actually think Music Note is better. But they are both very nice fillies and as a fan of racing was impressed with the show that put on in the Alabama.

I didn't think Andy was being rude at all, nor was anyone else. I guess I'm so used to having to defend myself that I got my back up. I'd like to think that I would feel the same way if the sires were reversed. I realize the KY Oaks/Alabama double is hard to beat, but Music Note did beat PS and I don't think it's fair to hold PS's bad trip against her and assume that PS would have won. Flute won the KY Oaks and Alabama a few years back and did not get the title. She didn't run that well in finishing 2nd to Exogenous in the Gazelle and then I believe she ran poorly in the Beldame. In this case, Proud Spell has other wins on her resume this year besides those two races, so obviously she'd be a worthy champion, but she just ran poorly in the Cotillion against horses she was supposed to beat handily. Music Note did lose to PS, but she ran well in that race (I was upset by a devastating nose loss immediately after that race and I was disappointed in her. I've come to a different conclusion now).

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I thought the logic was flawed from the get-go.

Trying to present Proud Spell's late season loss in the Cotillion (to a potential up-and-comer within the division no less) as though it was a defining race in her campaign is preposterous when the very same filly, one start earlier stuck it to a previously untested, could-be-any-kind Music Note in the Alabama. All this at a distance and with a race setup that favored the latter.

What we got in the stretch at Saratoga was the defining race for the division. One filly, all heart and willing to lay her body down pole after pole, and the other her perfect foil, of limitless talent and pedigree but lacking in true mettle (typical of the stallion and so many of his offspring).

How exactly did Music Note get a perfect set up in the Alabama ? I thought Castellano rode her terribly that day - the pace was very soft and he kept her 5 or so lengths off the lead. She has a very good turn of foot and should have been kept closer.

I don't know why you think Music Note has no heart or why Indy's offspring in general don't, but I'm not even going to ask you about that.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Little Belle (Music Note's stablemate as you know) did get an upressured lead, which, when the running really started gave Proud Spell a little more work to do to establish a clear lead at the p of the stretch.

Music Note got to bide her time and move for the front as she pleased, just as she did in the CCA Oaks. Only this time, instead of rocketing away past the hopeless front markers, she cruised up alongside a game racehorse that she clearly had the better of, got looked in the eye, and gave it up.

She gave it up? LOL She didn't spit the bit and collapse - Music Note, untested to this point in her brief career, was just outgamed. She wasn't outclassed and she certainly didn't call it quits. This is like those comments about Bernardini in the BC Classic a few years ago. Finishing 2nd, even a good second, does not mean that you have no heart.

Indian Blessing is starting to look strong for this title.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Betsy

How exactly did Music Note get a perfect set up in the Alabama ? I thought Castellano rode her terribly that day - the pace was very soft and he kept her 5 or so lengths off the lead. She has a very good turn of foot and should have been kept closer.

Wasn't she merely a length away from Proud Spell for most of the backstretch, drafting in behind in the garden spot, much as a sharp-witted cyclist would?

Seriously, though, in terms of pace, I agree that she wasn't the beneficiary. By race setup I meant more that her stablemate, Little Belle, who is at least of listed stake calibur, was sent out to basically tease Proud Spell (perhaps baiting that one into dueling or a premature move to the lead). Meanwhile, Music Note could just stalk Proud Spell (her only real rival) and pounce when necessary. All this with the race contested at 10f, perhaps the biggest advantage any entrant in the race enjoyed.

Certainly she's not outclassed by Proud Spell and maybe, having been untested up to that point, she will be more "battle hardened" next time she locks horns with a comparable rival.

However, replaying the Alabama just now I did kind of overstate how easily she cruised up to Proud Spell at the 1/8th pole. Seems like she might have that other AP Indy flaw we've seen in some of his other horses (most notably AP Adventure). When the real running started around the far turn, Music Note got left about 2 lengths by Proud Spell despite being under a bit of a drive from Castellano. Only once they straightened up did it look like she would inhale Proud Spell. Perhaps that's what took some of the edge off her finish.

She might be, like Easy Goer, a Belmont horse.

[King Glorious]

Indian Blessing has been the best 3yo filly of 2008. It's really that simple. The award doesn't say who's the best one at routing or who's the best one at sprinting. It ask who is the best one period and that answer is Indian Blessing. What I'm hoping for is Midnight Lute to not make the Sprint and Baffert enter IB in the open race against the boys. After she drills them there, then can we end this debate?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not to sound redundant, but if she's the best filly of '08, what is Zaftig? Because she pissed on Indian Blessing.

one race, before she learned to rate... i think Zatfigs a 1 hit wonder, where has she been ?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not to sound redundant, but if she's the best filly of '08, what is Zaftig? Because she pissed on Indian Blessing.

A much better 3yo filly on that day?

The 3yo filly Eclipse should be resolved on Breeders Cup day - it's just a shame this Breeders Cup is being run over a surface other than dirt.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Not to sound redundant, but if she's the best filly of '08, what is Zaftig? Because she pissed on Indian Blessing.

Well, how about best/most accomplished 3yo filly? I do think your question is an interesting one though. Why not Zaftig for the Eclipse? I remember back in 2005 I was campaigning for Ghostzapper to win the Eclipse as HOY again even though he only raced once. The thinking is that the criteria says only that a horse has to have started at least once in North America. Think about it. How many times have we seen a European come over here and win one of the BC races and be named NA champion? Off the top, I know Miesque (twice), High Chaparral (twice, and he didn't even win his race outright the second time), Johannesburg, Daylami, Kalanisi, Ouija Board a couple of times. Then think about the cases of Arazi and Singspiel. Arazi not only won the Eclipse as top 2yo but was also one of that year's three finalist for HOY. Singspiel never actually won a race in the United States in his year (won the Canadian International and ran second in the BC Turf) and still won the title. So, since technically Zaftig has met the criteria, why not vote for her if you think she was the best 3yo filly to race in NA in 2008?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Injured? And what about her other stakes wins? What were those?

hmm she had one other stakes win where she beat NO ONE, im sure even you dont look at that as anything special, i remember it well, she beat a way overbet Kiran filly, maybe a daughter of Forestry.

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I agree about the surface thing. But isn't one of the giant problems in the game today the BC? Why should so much ride on one race?

let me ask you a question that i think is reasonable.... Are you high on Zatfig, or just in the mood to knock Indian Blessing ?

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I've liked Zaftig since her maiden breaker. And I'm not knocking Indian Blessing. I just disagreed that she has been the best 3 year old filly this year. it's just not that clear cut to me.

It was not clear cut to me either, but with Proud Spell's loss, i feel shes all but lossed it, especially if she does not race again this year... If Music Note wins the Lady's Classic its her's, if she does not and Indian Blessing wins her sprint race i think its her's, if they both win, i think it goes to Music Note because she will be beating a champion and Zenyatta, if they both lose i think it comes back to Indian Blessing