Israel suspending air bombing

Originally Posted by dalakhani

And why did we then abandon the somalians? nothing to gain maybe?

And why did we support Idi Amin or Mobutu or the countless others?

And why havent we been tougher with China on trade if we have such a problem with their human rights practices? Why were we much more lenient in our attitude toward China back when their human rights policies were measurably worse? Could it be because we needed them against the big, bad USSR?????

We have and will continue to do the wrong thing. We strive to do it right. We have backed some hideous killers you are correct.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia to BEGIN with? and that is not the reason we keep pestering China. The USSR is gone. So why dont we just lay off and get that trade that other countries step in for?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have spent far more money in Africa than any other country in the World. We dumped some Marines in the middle of Somalia just to break up a horrific tribal war, and got them killed. We have done a hell of a lot of altruistic things. I am not naive enough to think everything is done this way. But I damn sure am not as totally cynical as you.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia, and why do we keep bugging China while losing huge bucks in trade with them because of it?

Excuse me for butting in Pat.
I think you and dala have a nice debate going.
But if we're going to talk about China now, and leave out Tibet...
oh nevermind.
Continue to discourse about Somalia.
Somehow that connects with Israel and Lebanon.
I'm very surprised that nobody brought up Grenada or Panama.
Chile or Libya anyone?

Back to my question, Pat....
Just suppose that somehow you got yourself elected to be president of the USA...
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Go with what Israel is doing...bomb the sh-t out of Lebanon at all costs to "get" Hezzbollah...and incur the negitive fall out from many Arab allies,
or hope for a cease fire and bring in the UN and/or NATO?

[dalakhani]

Let me add this-

Much of the criticism i have of our govt does not apply to our people. For the most part, our citizens want to do what is right. I think most of our soldiers bravely fight for honor, duty and love of country. I think they believe that if they die that they are dying for a just cause. I have nothing but respect for them.

I am proud to be an American. I am just not proud of the current administration.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have and will continue to do the wrong thing. We strive to do it right. We have backed some hideous killers you are correct.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia to BEGIN with? and that is not the reason we keep pestering China. The USSR is gone. So why dont we just lay off and get that trade that other countries step in for?

17.7 billion dollar trade deficit??????????????????????????

Yes, it seems that we are indeed being REALLY tough on China.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have and will continue to do the wrong thing. We strive to do it right. We have backed some hideous killers you are correct.

So why did we drop Marines in Somalia to BEGIN with? and that is not the reason we keep pestering China. The USSR is gone. So why dont we just lay off and get that trade that other countries step in for?

Quick history lesson:

The US supported the ousted leader Barre from 1978 until he was overthrown in 2001. We backed him to a tune of 900 million dollars while he killed, raped and pillaged.

In the ensuing Melee', the US wanted to take control of the southern part of the red sea but more importantly the Suez Canal.

The marines were there so that a religious fundamentalist wouldnt take over thus preventing the US from possibly mining for oil to the north.

Maybe you didnt know this.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Excuse me for butting in Pat.
I think you and dala have a nice debate going.
But if we're going to talk about China now, and leave out Tibet...
oh nevermind.
Continue to discourse about Somalia.
Somehow that connects with Israel and Lebanon.
I'm very surprised that nobody brought up Grenada or Panama.
Chile or Libya anyone?

Back to my question, Pat....
Just suppose that somehow you got yourself elected to be president of the USA...
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Go with what Israel is doing...bomb the sh-t out of Lebanon at all costs to "get" Hezzbollah...and incur the negitive fall out from many Arab allies,
or hope for a cease fire and bring in the UN and/or NATO?

I would continue to ask for the UN resolution of the total disarming of Hezbollah. I would ask Israel to try harder to miss civilians. My problem is that I wonder how many of the people they have hit have armed, or are armed Hezbollah. Obviously the children killed and hurt is absolutely chilling.

I really dont know what I would do. Its a very difficult situation. I guarantee one thing. If Israel is actually ever left alone, the will not harm anyone. And if commerce between the Israelis and the Arab neighbors ever takes place on a large scale, wonders can happen. See Northern Ireland. I understand the power of putting people to work and allowing them to leave peacefully while taking care of the family. Northern Ireland has become a shining example that there is still some hope.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Quick history lesson:

The US supported the ousted leader Barre from 1978 until he was overthrown in 2001. We backed him to a tune of 900 million dollars while he killed, raped and pillaged.

In the ensuing Melee', the US wanted to take control of the southern part of the red sea but more importantly the Suez Canal.

The marines were there so that a religious fundamentalist wouldnt take over thus preventing the US from possibly mining for oil to the north.

Maybe you didnt know this.

I did not know this, but I know of other situations that back your case that are horrible. I also know a lot of cases I have not mentioned that support my basic premise. On the whole, we TRY to do the right thing.

My Uncle (my father's Identical twin) was in the foreign service all my life (mostly in Southeast Asia during the tumultuous 60's and 70's, Indonesia later) and was Ambassador to New Guinea as a career man. Hardly a giant post, and this in no way makes me an expert. But he has made it clear that we attempt to do the right thing even though politics gets in the way as always. I have peppered him with examples that dal. is peppering me with. He is also horrified about our situation in Iraq. He is not aligned with a political party, but I think he might be a little on the liberal side.
From most of the history I know, "we" have made some horrible decisions but have also acted in a manner that does not in anyway help us financially or politically and is totally on the side of human rights.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I would continue to ask for the UN resolution of the total disarming of Hezbollah. I would ask Israel to try harder to miss civilians. My problem is that I wonder how many of the people they have hit have armed, or are armed Hezbollah. Obviously the children killed and hurt is absolutely chilling.

I really dont know what I would do. Its a very difficult situation. I guarantee one thing. If Israel is actually ever left alone, the will not harm anyone. And if commerce between the Israelis and the Arab neighbors ever takes place on a large scale, wonders can happen. See Northern Ireland. I understand the power of putting people to work and allowing them to leave peacefully while taking care of the family. Northern Ireland has become a shining example that there is still some hope.

Pat,
Northern Ireland is a very good example, and so would be Japan, or Germany for that matter.
I take your point that trade can only flourish in mutally agreed (peaceful) circumstances.
On that I agree.
Unfortunately, as conditions apply to Israel and those that would wish to trade with her, each day that the destruction continues, the fewer potential trading partners will play.
Israel has done a great deal to generate animosity. The US has gone along for a very long time...
and, as an aside, I DO like Israel (but not current actions).
What does Israel export besides citrus, olive oil, and produce?
I know she imports a lot of armaments financed and supplied by the US.
Therein the vulnerability to the US to our "allies".

The old Arab saying goes something like this, "If you're friends with my enemy, you are also my enemy."

It will take many years for Israel to restore "trust relationships" with potential trading partners.
I hope they start on that path sooner than later.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I did not know this, but I know of other situations that back your case that are horrible. I also know a lot of cases I have not mentioned that support my basic premise. On the whole, we TRY to do the right thing.

My Uncle (my father's Identical twin) was in the foreign service all my life (mostly in Southeast Asia during the tumultuous 60's and 70's, Indonesia later) and was Ambassador to New Guinea as a career man. Hardly a giant post, and this in no way makes me an expert. But he has made it clear that we attempt to do the right thing even though politics gets in the way as always. I have peppered him with examples that dal. is peppering me with. He is also horrified about our situation in Iraq. He is not aligned with a political party, but I think he might be a little on the liberal side.
From most of the history I know, "we" have made some horrible decisions but have also acted in a manner that does not in anyway help us financially or politically and is totally on the side of human rights.

I dont disagree with this. If it DOES NOT hurt us politically, we have and will help out. I cant cite any cases right now but im sure there have been some.

I just think this whole "spread democracy in the middle east" thing is the biggest load of s h i t a US govt has ever tried to perpetrate on the world and it own people. We arent in Iraq to "spread democracy". We arent there to "liberate people". If democracry indeed spreads and people are liberated then that is great but it is not even close to the main objective, an objective that has been spun and changed multiple times since the start of the iraqi war.

What does Israel export besides citrus, olive oil, and produce?
I know she imports a lot of armaments financed and supplied by the US.
Therein the vulnerability to the US to our "allies".

The old Arab saying goes something like this, "If you're friends with my enemy, you are also my enemy."


Brains (education) and hard work. Like Japan. Japan has very few natural resources, is a huge consumer of oil, and has made it on the back of innovation which is just getting ready to bust open in today's world if only peace would break out.

Thats why the Sunnis and Shiites kill each other right back. Thats why Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others want Iran to get their hands out... Persian Muslims, they hate the Persian part.

Oh yes. imo Yassir Arafat got Sharon elected by his deeds. Sharon is/was (he is barely alive) a "right wing take it to the Arabs".

I know that if Israel were ever left in peace... not bombed, kidnapped, suicide bombed, etc... they would help commerce take hold. They would gladly trade with the Palestinians and other Arab nations, they already have at some points in time. Israel understands the importance of education and commerce and understands the dangers of mindless zealotry. Remember they had their own Prime Minister's life take by a right wing Israeli fanatic.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I dont disagree with this. If it DOES NOT hurt us politically, we have and will help out. I cant cite any cases right now but im sure there have been some.

I just think this whole "spread democracy in the middle east" thing is the biggest load of s h i t a US govt has ever tried to perpetrate on the world and it own people. We arent in Iraq to "spread democracy". We arent there to "liberate people". If democracry indeed spreads and people are liberated then that is great but it is not even close to the main objective, an objective that has been spun and changed multiple times since the start of the iraqi war.

Maybe not democracy. But for gosh sakes basic human rights... that has to sink in sometime. The middle east has gone thru far too many despots and crazy people. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe some cultures do not permit basic human rights. I mean my gosh look at what they do to their women. And what we did (and to some extent still do) to our women.

I have now been upgraded to Hollywood Park because of my political threads on a horse board. Hollywood Park will be developed into something else in two years most likely...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

well how else do you support a country than with money???
where's your outrage for all the other countries we send money to? did you know that til 9/11 afghanistan was our #1 recipient of u.s. aid? fat lot of good that did us, huh? what about most favored nation trading status granted to china? does that burn your butt? or is it just israel that ticks you off? what about funding public schools? you don't have kids do you? what about interstates? do you drive on them all? i mean, why does hawaii have an interstate? what a waste of my money...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Hezbollah is awful, but the blood is on the hands of the people that do the killing. Israel needs to go in and root them out, even if it means heavy casualties. All they are doing by bombing them is make people in Lebanon hate Israel and side with the terrorists.

guess what, they already hate them and side with terrorists. nothing israel does, short of blowing themselves off the face of the earth, is going to change that.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

well how else do you support a country than with money???
where's your outrage for all the other countries we send money to? did you know that til 9/11 afghanistan was our #1 recipient of u.s. aid? fat lot of good that did us, huh? what about most favored nation trading status granted to china? does that burn your butt? or is it just israel that ticks you off? what about funding public schools? you don't have kids do you? what about interstates? do you drive on them all? i mean, why does hawaii have an interstate? what a waste of my money...

You support them in things like the UN, which we already do. I don't need to give them my tax dollar to support them.

I have tremendous outrage when it comes to the US giving money to any country unless it is humanitarian. I have much more dislike of Mexico and China than I do Israel. Mexico and China actually cost americans jobs and Israel just sucks up my tax dollar.

As for public schools, they are underfunded because I am sending billions that should be going to public schools to countries like Israel, who should raise their own taxes, not take my money. As for your other comments, I don't like money being wasted at all, but I rather have it wasted on my country than another country like Israel or Egypt.

Here we go again with the money.

The Space Shuttle is an incredible waste of money... trying to keep humans alive instead of sending more probes out in which we could learn a whole lot more. The list goes on and on. We have throughout our history supplied money to foreign countries for many reasons. The money given to these countries is a drop in the bucket compared to health care and military expenditures. Do you think all of that money is used efficiently?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Here we go again with the money.

The Space Shuttle is an incredible waste of money... trying to keep humans alive instead of sending more probes out in which we could learn a whole lot more. The list goes on and on. We have throughout our history supplied money to foreign countries for many reasons. The money given to these countries is a drop in the bucket compared to health care and military expenditures. Do you think all of that money is used efficiently?

No, but it is Americans and American tax dollars being wasted on these silly little countries is a joke. It is not America's job to buy a military for ever silly little country on earth.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

No, but it is Americans and American tax dollars being wasted on these silly little countries is a joke. It is not America's job to buy a military for ever silly little country on earth.

Bold Ruler,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I looked, the US was the leading supplier of armaments to other countries...purchased on credit.
For the US to redirect those lines of production and discontinue supply would cause serious dislocation to manufacturers in the US.
In other words, the US has built great dependency on making and selling arms.
The impact for transitioning from that paradigm would have serious outcomes for our economy.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold Ruler,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I looked, the US was the leading supplier of armaments to other countries...purchased on credit.
For the US to redirect those lines of production and discontinue supply would cause serious dislocation to manufacturers in the US.
In other words, the US has built great dependency on making and selling arms.
The impact for transitioning from that paradigm would have serious outcomes for our economy.

Great. Move the money into another sector. The defense contractors already make too much anyway. It is the most ridiculous pork in the entire budget. It is only a matter of time before all these jobs are shipped overseas anyway. It is already beginning to happen.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Great. Move the money into another sector. The defense contractors already make too much anyway. It is the most ridiculous pork in the entire budget. It is only a matter of time before all these jobs are shipped overseas anyway. It is already beginning to happen.

Unfortunately, China is supplying silk worms and other very potent arms.
Russia continues to supply katusha rockets and most of the small arms (ak-47's and modifications).
I hope it was that easy for defense contractors to switch to other sources of market share.
That would indeed make sense, but I think the "pork" demanded by state representatives will continue. The transition simply will cost too much, especially if a growing market exists.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Let me add this-

Much of the criticism i have of our govt does not apply to our people. For the most part, our citizens want to do what is right. I think most of our soldiers bravely fight for honor, duty and love of country. I think they believe that if they die that they are dying for a just cause. I have nothing but respect for them.

I am proud to be an American. I am just not proud of the current administration.

Shhheeeeiott....you coulda said that in the first place!!