Hank hates Jessica?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pba1817

1) OK?? Think about what his legacy coul dhave been if he wasn't retired at 3??

2) That doesn't make it OK to me, does it to you?? Also the places you mentioned are nostalgic, and SAFE for the most part for families to visit(not the Vet). Take a trip to the following tracks, hit a for a few thousand and tell me just how safe you feel being there and when leaving- Pimlico, Hollywood, Golden Gate, Thisltedown, Aqueduct, Hawthorne, etc

3) Don't be stupid... cheating is industry wide and you know it.

1. But he wasnt and he is still remembered today. Everyone acts like horses were campaigned for 10 years in past years. We had a popular Derby winner a few years back named Funny Cide who raced till he was 6 and yet the game didnt suddenly turn around. The thing that you and most people forget is that NCAA basketball has always been a hugely popluar sport the last 25 years and the top players havent been staying for four years for a long time. However trainers, owners and jockeys stay around like coaches and managers but that is always forgotten.

2. How safe do you feel leaving Madison Square garden with a couple thousand in your pocket? What about yankee stadium? This is an inane argument. Keeneland, Santa anita, Churchill, Saratoga, Gulfstream, Arlington, Turfway, Mountaineer, Charlestown, laurel, Turf paradise, Belmont, Delaware, Colonial, Tampa, Ellis park, River downs, Indiana downs, hoosier, Lone star, La Downs, the red mile, the Meadowands, Monmouth, Penn national, Presque isle, Finger lakes are all in safe areas with some obviously nicer than others.

3. Your response is typical and doesnt answer the question. Let me ask one more time. HOW do you know WHO is cheating and WHAT they are doing? Give me one shred of evidence that you personally know is an example of "cheating" that goes on without punishment. And tell me how exactly will you know what measures are working or when the "cheating" has stopped or is being curbed.

[pba1817]

My point is that if the industry would institute a minimum age for breeding to begin, then owners would be more inclined to run their horses for a longer period of time. Why not make the official minimum breeding age of 5 years? This will help the more recognizable horses stay in the limelight a little longer, and allow fans to be more appreciative of their skills and careers.

I have been to most of the tracks you listed.. some are great, some are ok, and some aren't so great.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

3. Your response is typical and doesnt answer the question. Let me ask one more time. HOW do you know WHO is cheating and WHAT they are doing? Give me one shred of evidence that you personally know is an example of "cheating" that goes on without punishment. And tell me how exactly will you know what measures are working or when the "cheating" has stopped or is being curbed.

Punishment should be worthy of an infraction, When you cheat the betting public and your fellow trainers/jockeys/owners, you should be JAILED, not fined/suspended. If racing officials and law enforcement would get in line on this "white collar" crime, then racing might remove the stigma of a cheaters paradise.

For a sample of the cheating that is accepted by this industry, take a look at the links here,

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/press_releases.htm
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/complaints.htm

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by pba1817

I am in my late 30's and I was always allowed to go to the track, and thus this was how I was introduced to the sport.

A dump, is a place that you would be ashamed and embarrassed to take your wife/GF/friends/family to, Or a place where you would be afraid to leave your wife alone while you place a awager.

And if the places are not dumps, you are likely to attract more family oriented people, thus broadening your base of possible fans.

Maybe I am a bad husband/father. I've never been embarrassed or afraid to leave my wife and kids alone to place a wager. How many assaults, kidnappings or robberies vs. women and children have you heard of at a race track? I haven't heard of any.

Colorful language? Sure. It broadens their horizens.

[TheSpyder]

[quote=pba1817]1)
2) That doesn't make it OK to me, does it to you?? Also the places you mentioned are nostalgic, and SAFE for the most part for families to visit(not the Vet). Take a trip to the following tracks, hit a for a few thousand and tell me just how safe you feel being there and when leaving- Pimlico, Hollywood, Golden Gate, Thisltedown, Aqueduct, Hawthorne, etc
quote]

I think you are a little paranoid. I grew up at the Big T and it is as safe as anywhere. There's only one person to worry about and that's Morty. Saying you would not bring your wife/girlfriend and/or familiy, I think you're more ashamed of yourself than the place you're taking them.

Also, wake up to the internet. I spend more time with horse racing than most. I work out of the house, follow the tracks daily, and I'm a die hard fan.....all from the basement of my house in SC 400 miles from a track or OTB.

[TheSpyder]

And they become good artists!

Originally Posted by Bigsmc

Maybe I am a bad husband/father. I've never been embarrassed or afraid to leave my wife and kids alone to place a wager. How many assaults, kidnappings or robberies vs. women and children have you heard of at a race track? I haven't heard of any.

Colorful language? Sure. It broadens their horizens.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pba1817

My point is that if the industry would institute a minimum age for breeding to begin, then owners would be more inclined to run their horses for a longer period of time. Why not make the official minimum breeding age of 5 years? This will help the more recognizable horses stay in the limelight a little longer, and allow fans to be more appreciative of their skills and careers.

I have been to most of the tracks you listed.. some are great, some are ok, and some aren't so great.




Punishment should be worthy of an infraction, When you cheat the betting public and your fellow trainers/jockeys/owners, you should be JAILED, not fined/suspended. If racing officials and law enforcement would get in line on this "white collar" crime, then racing might remove the stigma of a cheaters paradise.

For a sample of the cheating that is accepted by this industry, take a look at the links here,

http://www.chrb.ca.gov/press_releases.htm
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/complaints.htm

One of the things that you dont understand is that a great deal of money that is generated by the breeding and selling of horses is used by owners to subsidize racing stables which rarely generate enough money to sustain themselves. You as a bettor fail to understand that the owners who put on the show almost universally at a loss have to have the ability to get money back in order to maintain the racing side of the business. Everytime I read about how there should be rules regarding who can be bred or at what age I cringe. That a signifigant portion of the industry which is already getting hammered by the economic downturn and the rise in costs should put in rules that will make it even harder to stay afloat so that "fans" can "enjoy" the two or three horses that actually carry any name value a few times a year is ignorant. What happens to the three year old who sustains a major injury? Just put him in the freezer for a few years and thaw him out at 5? What about the bills like insurance for those horses? What about a nice mare who gets sick or hurt at a young age? Just pay bills for a few years on them while they stand in the field looking pretty? This idea is something that guys like Bill Finley came up with and those guys have zero idea of what goes on in reality and why things like this are not only never going to happen but are extremely harmful for not only a lot of people but horses too. You gonna sponsor a filly tht gets abandoned at 2 because she got hurt and no one wants to pay bills on her for three years?

So if they stop publishing violation on the internet then the cheating will have stopped? Jail time for infractions? This is just more of the same crap unrealistic people put out there. No doubt that ALL sports have issues and racing among them but a lot of this "cheating" is nothing more than minor violations of poorly written and enforced medication rules that have no effect on the horses actual performance. Like I said before if they stopped publishing these violations on the internet would cheating just disappear?

[Danzig]

there is no way you can institute minimum breeding ages. you can't force owners to keep their horses on the track.
we've had this discussion before, how to persuade owners to keep their horses in training. it's a difficult proposition. one way you'll see it happen right now is that the economy is down, and the breeding market is down. there will be a lot less horses rushing to the shed this year than in years' past. it happened with the years of silver charm, real quiet, etc. if there is more money to be made on the track, they'll stay there.
also, chuck is right. the best horses back in the day didn't race on as often as some think, or run in as many races in total. man o war retired at 3 to avoid carrying weights horses hadn't seen before. he ran 21 times, and decades later, native dancer ran that same amount. count fleet retired at 3. yeah, he suffered an injury-but not one typically career-ending.
i do think it's a bit laughable at the announcements of stud deal for a few of these older horses, such as student council-he hasn't won since the pimlico special. i have a hard time thinking he'll be a good sire, but he does have a farm to back him up. tiago got a deal-ok. i don't see it for some of them, but some do. and the expenses can get huge for owners, and when they get an offer, they have to consider their bottom line. for many it's perennially in the red, so how can you really judge them harshly when they leap at the chance for some money to finance future racing endeavors?
you just have to hope that enough horses stay on to make things interesting, and wait for some others to come out from the woodwork.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there is no way you can institute minimum breeding ages. you can't force owners to keep their horses on the track.
we've had this discussion before, how to persuade owners to keep their horses in training. it's a difficult proposition. one way you'll see it happen right now is that the economy is down, and the breeding market is down. there will be a lot less horses rushing to the shed this year than in years' past. it happened with the years of silver charm, real quiet, etc. if there is more money to be made on the track, they'll stay there.
also, chuck is right. the best horses back in the day didn't race on as often as some think, or run in as many races in total. man o war retired at 3 to avoid carrying weights horses hadn't seen before. he ran 21 times, and decades later, native dancer ran that same amount. count fleet retired at 3. yeah, he suffered an injury-but not one typically career-ending.
i do think it's a bit laughable at the announcements of stud deal for a few of these older horses, such as student council-he hasn't won since the pimlico special. i have a hard time thinking he'll be a good sire, but he does have a farm to back him up. tiago got a deal-ok. i don't see it for some of them, but some do. and the expenses can get huge for owners, and when they get an offer, they have to consider their bottom line. for many it's perennially in the red, so how can you really judge them harshly when they leap at the chance for some money to finance future racing endeavors?
you just have to hope that enough horses stay on to make things interesting, and wait for some others to come out from the woodwork.

I do wish that top horses would race more and run at 4 but does 2 campaigns of a top horse make a big difference when you are comparing horseracing to other sports where the stars play for 10 or more years. I just dont buy into the theory that the sport would somehow become mainstream if Curlin or Big brown were to run till they were 6. And while we can bag on Shiekh Mo for retiring horses and having bizzare campaigns with them there are a lot of owners that need to sell their horses at their peak because they arent billionaires. If they wind up in the breeding shed so be it.

[pgiaco]

[quote=Cannon Shell]One of the things that you dont understand is that a great deal of money that is generated by the breeding and selling of horses is used by owners to subsidize racing stables which rarely generate enough money to sustain themselves. You as a bettor fail to understand that the owners who put on the show almost universally at a loss have to have the ability to get money back in order to maintain the racing side of the business. Everytime I read about how there should be rules regarding who can be bred or at what age I cringe. That a signifigant portion of the industry which is already getting hammered by the economic downturn and the rise in costs should put in rules that will make it even harder to stay afloat so that "fans" can "enjoy" the two or three horses that actually carry any name value a few times a year is ignorant. What happens to the three year old who sustains a major injury? Just put him in the freezer for a few years and thaw him out at 5? What about the bills like insurance for those horses? What about a nice mare who gets sick or hurt at a young age? Just pay bills for a few years on them while they stand in the field looking pretty? This idea is something that guys like Bill Finley came up with and those guys have zero idea of what goes on in reality and why things like this are not only never going to happen but are extremely harmful for not only a lot of people but horses too. You gonna sponsor a filly tht gets abandoned at 2 because she got hurt and no one wants to pay bills on her for three years?

QUOTE]
Thank you, Chuck. I wish it was as easy to keep horses in training some of these people make it out to be. Not to mention how difficult it is to run a stable and how difficult it is keep money flowing. These jokers spouting this nonsense have never paid a training, vet, shipping or layup bill. While I love racing I really wouldn't give a rat's ass what "was good for the game" if I was in position to get a stallion deal that would set my family up for life.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I do wish that top horses would race more and run at 4 but does 2 campaigns of a top horse make a big difference when you are comparing horseracing to other sports where the stars play for 10 or more years. I just dont buy into the theory that the sport would somehow become mainstream if Curlin or Big brown were to run till they were 6. And while we can bag on Shiekh Mo for retiring horses and having bizzare campaigns with them there are a lot of owners that need to sell their horses at their peak because they arent billionaires. If they wind up in the breeding shed so be it.

it's a niche sport, everyone may as well get used to that idea. i don't buy the thought that it's 'dying', it's been on life support for years according to some. it's hanging in there just fine, but will never see the likes of it's biggest days again-it's a different world. no way it'll be mainstream like football and baseball.
we would enjoy seeing the top horses run more, and sometimes we all decry lack of top horses in some of the supposed top races. but we still watch, still bet, and oftentimes still get to see some good racing to the wire.
as for bagging on sheikh mo, i doubt he cares-and he's easy to bag on, because if anyone could afford to keep their horses in training longer, it's him. and yeah, a lot of folks might be able to afford to keep a horse going a bit longer, but they can also go buy a few more horses if they don't. if you can get your hobby in the black a couple years, who can blame them really?

Originally Posted by assholeface

Thank you, Chuck. I wish it was as easy to keep horses in training some of these people make it out to be. Not to mention how difficult it is to run a stable and how difficult it is keep money flowing. These jokers spouting this nonsense have never paid a training, vet, shipping or layup bill. While I love racing I really wouldn't give a rat's ass what "was good for the game" if I was in position to get a stallion deal that would set my family up for life.

The percentage of owners with top horses that actually need money is what? 3 percent? Jokers? Yeah ok, buddy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

The percentage of owners with top horses that actually need money is what? 3 percent? Jokers? Yeah ok, buddy.

The top owners arent the ones affected by moves like this. It is the other 97% that dont have the ability to keep taking losses and pay bills on a non earning filly for 2 years before she can be bred. They are the ones that make up the vast majority of the cards on a day to day basis. No one is asking for anyone to shed a tear for owners but making rules that will severly harm the great majority of owners with no concrete benefits is not the type of thinking that is going to advance the sport.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The top owners arent the ones affected by moves like this. It is the other 97% that dont have the ability to keep taking losses and pay bills on a non earning filly for 2 years before she can be bred. They are the ones that make up the vast majority of the cards on a day to day basis. No one is asking for anyone to shed a tear for owners but making rules that will severly harm the great majority of owners with no concrete benefits is not the type of thinking that is going to advance the sport.

I wasn't responding to a ridiculous rule proposal that won't see the light of day.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

At least you guys have some things in common.

I laughed....alot!

[rontheman1964]

The best feature of the entire broadcast was the clock in the upper righthand corner telling you how much time until the horses went to the post. That way I could watch all of the football teams I bet lose before I turned back the the races to see all of the horses I bet lose too. Saved a lot of wasted time watching those sentimental stories about rich people and their horses.

[pba1817]

[quote=TheSpyder]

Originally Posted by pba1817

1)
2) That doesn't make it OK to me, does it to you?? Also the places you mentioned are nostalgic, and SAFE for the most part for families to visit(not the Vet). Take a trip to the following tracks, hit a for a few thousand and tell me just how safe you feel being there and when leaving- Pimlico, Hollywood, Golden Gate, Thisltedown, Aqueduct, Hawthorne, etc
quote]

I think you are a little paranoid. I grew up at the Big T and it is as safe as anywhere. There's only one person to worry about and that's Morty. Saying you would not bring your wife/girlfriend and/or familiy, I think you're more ashamed of yourself than the place you're taking them.

Also, wake up to the internet. I spend more time with horse racing than most. I work out of the house, follow the tracks daily, and I'm a die hard fan.....all from the basement of my house in SC 400 miles from a track or OTB.

I do not consider any part of Ohio near Cleveland safe.... that place is a dump.

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

One of the things that you dont understand is that a great deal of money that is generated by the breeding and selling of horses is used by owners to subsidize racing stables which rarely generate enough money to sustain themselves. You as a bettor fail to understand that the owners who put on the show almost universally at a loss have to have the ability to get money back in order to maintain the racing side of the business. Everytime I read about how there should be rules regarding who can be bred or at what age I cringe. That a signifigant portion of the industry which is already getting hammered by the economic downturn and the rise in costs should put in rules that will make it even harder to stay afloat so that "fans" can "enjoy" the two or three horses that actually carry any name value a few times a year is ignorant. What happens to the three year old who sustains a major injury? Just put him in the freezer for a few years and thaw him out at 5? What about the bills like insurance for those horses? What about a nice mare who gets sick or hurt at a young age? Just pay bills for a few years on them while they stand in the field looking pretty? This idea is something that guys like Bill Finley came up with and those guys have zero idea of what goes on in reality and why things like this are not only never going to happen but are extremely harmful for not only a lot of people but horses too. You gonna sponsor a filly tht gets abandoned at 2 because she got hurt and no one wants to pay bills on her for three years?

So if they stop publishing violation on the internet then the cheating will have stopped? Jail time for infractions? This is just more of the same crap unrealistic people put out there. No doubt that ALL sports have issues and racing among them but a lot of this "cheating" is nothing more than minor violations of poorly written and enforced medication rules that have no effect on the horses actual performance. Like I said before if they stopped publishing these violations on the internet would cheating just disappear?

What planet do you live on?

[pba1817]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there is no way you can institute minimum breeding ages. you can't force owners to keep their horses on the track.
we've had this discussion before, how to persuade owners to keep their horses in training. it's a difficult proposition. one way you'll see it happen right now is that the economy is down, and the breeding market is down. there will be a lot less horses rushing to the shed this year than in years' past. it happened with the years of silver charm, real quiet, etc. if there is more money to be made on the track, they'll stay there.
also, chuck is right. the best horses back in the day didn't race on as often as some think, or run in as many races in total. man o war retired at 3 to avoid carrying weights horses hadn't seen before. he ran 21 times, and decades later, native dancer ran that same amount. count fleet retired at 3. yeah, he suffered an injury-but not one typically career-ending.
i do think it's a bit laughable at the announcements of stud deal for a few of these older horses, such as student council-he hasn't won since the pimlico special. i have a hard time thinking he'll be a good sire, but he does have a farm to back him up. tiago got a deal-ok. i don't see it for some of them, but some do. and the expenses can get huge for owners, and when they get an offer, they have to consider their bottom line. for many it's perennially in the red, so how can you really judge them harshly when they leap at the chance for some money to finance future racing endeavors?
you just have to hope that enough horses stay on to make things interesting, and wait for some others to come out from the woodwork.

If there was a minimum age for breeding(meaning horses would run through their 5yo season), do you not agree that there would be more opportunities for horses to earn their graded victories through a career? Thus enhancing their stud fees in their retirements?

You guys can sit on your pimple filled, fat asses all day long and knock ideas that people come up with, but you had best start thinking about what else you are going to throw your money away on soon because unless the thoroughbred industry makes some positive changes, they wont be around too much longer.

How about coming up with some ideas of your own to fix the problems the industry faces??

[pba1817]

See, you are pissed just like I said you would be.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pba1817

If there was a minimum age for breeding(meaning horses would run through their 5yo season), do you not agree that there would be more opportunities for horses to earn their graded victories through a career? Thus enhancing their stud fees in their retirements?

You guys can sit on your pimple filled, fat asses all day long and knock ideas that people come up with, but you had best start thinking about what else you are going to throw your money away on soon because unless the thoroughbred industry makes some positive changes, they wont be around too much longer.
How about coming up with some ideas of your own to fix the problems the industry faces??

i wish i had a dollar for how many times i've seen, heard that over the years. i wouldn't be up right now getting ready for work.

but hey, good luck with that bunch of b.s. you're touting-no doubt owners everywhere would be thrilled with you making arbitrary rules on what they can/can't do with their horses.
and i'd imagine any owner with a decent horse that they felt could win black type would make an honest attempt to do so-and if said horse couldn't do it in a reasonable time frame, he has no business being in the shed-nor would anyone make an effort to get him there.