Summer Bird pointed for The BC

[CSC]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

On this, we agree. Some people want to play both sides of the fence, on one hand talking about how bad this group of older horses is but then on the other side giving her extra credit for taking them on. I know I'm a broken recordon this but what should be looked at is the level of competition and not the age or sex. Facing the boys or facing older doesn't automatically mean it's a harder assignment. Say the Breeders' Cup was being run on dirt at Churchill this year. As much as we've been clamoring for Zenyatta to face males and run in the Classic, if Jackson were to put Rachel in the Distaff, wouldn't that be the bigger challenge for Zenyatta to take on and not the males in the Classic?

While this is the toughest field and deepest one she's faced, let's not go overboard and call it a tough challenge. Sure, any horse can lose any race but going in, she's by far the best horse and any loss would be considered a huge upset. Since when is it considered such a huge obstacle to overcome a field in which you are 1-2 on the morning line?

Well stated.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well I can only speak for myself in the portion of the conversation we're having together -- but Dunkirk always reeked of an overhyped NW2X horse...and has basically proven to be such...just one who is bred well enough to get 2nd in the least meaningful of the Triple Crown races.

So basically, everything is wrong with Dunkirk. He's not as good as everyone pretended he was. Bird beating him means as little as Quality Road beating him, something I pointed out ad nauseum elsewhere before the Travers. Beating Dunkirk is not a claim to fame, even if you do it in a Grade I race.

I agree with you for the most about Dunkirk though maybe I will give him the benefit of the doubt he has had health issues, I was also poking fun with the beyer disciple remark, it seems when greatness is discussed beyers always enter the equation, so when Summer Bird beats 2 horses that have beyered very generously in QR and Dunkirk some say he hasn't beaten anything worthwhile. Hypocrisy or not?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no one said they thought she would be bad on it. jackson doesn't like the stuff, and doesn't like how horses go over it. he may also not like how his trainer does regarding the stuff....

What's so bad about it if your horse can run over it and she comes home safe. Unless you are worried.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by CSC

I agree with you for the most about Dunkirk though maybe I will give him the benefit of the doubt he has had health issues, I was also poking fun with the beyer disciple remark, it seems when greatness is discussed beyers always enter the equation, so when Summer Bird beats 2 horses that have beyered very generously in QR and Dunkirk some say he hasn't beaten anything worthwhile. Hypocrisy or not?

Not a bad dig -- just not a good one for me since I've never used Beyers to justify Rachel and have maintained that Dunkirk wasn't much (though with the caveat that you mentioned) compared to what lots thought...and that therefore Quality Road wasn't what people were saying because beating Dunkirk on a souped up racetrack didn't impress me a whole lot.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

What's so bad about it if your horse can run over it and she comes home safe. Unless you are worried.

if jackson ran a lot of his horses over the stuff, but didn't send rachel you might have to wonder. i can't think of the last time he ran one over poly, can you? other than curlin against his better judgement that is.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

fixed that for you.

Buffalo Wild Wings is introducing a new wings sauce called Zenyatta. It starts off bland but finishes with a zesty kick that will make your taste buds explode.

Coach,

You get my vote for Avatar of the decade.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Danzig

not necessarily. if sea the stars was to come, i think zenyatta would have a hard time. also, a full field might pose problems due to her running style. rail trip might even be too much. but the classic point is most likely moot, as i don't see zenyatta going vs the males.

besides, the surface is a question for rachel. i think that's why everyone wants a matchup on dirt, since both have proven ability on the real thing.

That's not what I said. I said if the Classic were at Churchill on the dirt this year and Rachel was running, then it would be a tougher matchup for Zenyatta to run in the Distaff than in the Classic against the American older males. I was using that to point out how it's not always such a big deal facing males and sometimes staying in your own division can be tougher. People are going overboard with all this hype about Rachel facing older males but this race probably wouldn't be as tough as a Beldame with Zenyatta, Icon Project, and Seventh Street in it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You have the biggest hard on for this filly. She has beat the Ky Derby winner, Travers winner, Belmont winner, Ark winner, etc etc.. Add the Woodward, and put in context winning the Preakness short, switching barns coming off a huge G1 20 length score. Do you really think she wouldn't have slaughtered Summer Bird in the Travers? I really like Summer Bird and he is a very nice G1 colt but he can't get within 5 or 6 lengths of her. Rachel is getting better we haven't seen the bottom. A Woodward win secures Horse of the Year period.. If she loses the Woodward and Summer Bird wins JCGC and Classic (he won't) then SB has a claim if Rachel doesn't beat Zenyatta in the Beldame or wins Beldame and decides to crush in the Disstaff..

No I dont have a hard on for the filly in any way. While I admit that Jackson is not a favorite the logic of saying that a Belmont, Travers, Gold Cup and BC Classic winner isnt a horse of the year contender over a Oaks, Preakness, Haskell, Woodward winner is unusual.

Switching barns has no bearing on the award and you thinking we havent seen her bottom doesnt either. While Beyers are not an end all the thought that she would have whipped a horse that just won a grade 1 easily with a 110 beyer is laughable. If you read through my scenario you would have not seen any RA running in any races after the Woodward (which absolutely wont happen if she were to lose or even win in a less than impressive manner. Lori was saying that RA had the thing wrapped up regardless. I dont think that is true.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

if jackson ran a lot of his horses over the stuff, but didn't send rachel you might have to wonder. i can't think of the last time he ran one over poly, can you? other than curlin against his better judgement that is.

Name three horses other than Curlin, RA and Kensai that Jackson owns.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Clearly I need to get a life and off the internet... Google is the greatest time waster known to mankind:

HOY who didn't run in the Breeders Cup:
John Henry
Spend a Buck
Criminal Type
Holy Bull
Charismatic
Point Given
Mineshaft

Everyone was hurt, no one chose to not go.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Name three horses other than Curlin, RA and Kensai that Jackson owns.

dashing debby, stonestreet song, omniscient.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

dashing debby, stonestreet song, omniscient.

Jackson stalker

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Jackson stalker

lol

i had to search on bloodhorse, the only one that came to mind was dashing debby.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Everyone was hurt, no one chose to not go.

Holy Bull wasn't hurt and I'll never believe Mineshaft was either.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Holy Bull wasn't hurt and I'll never believe Mineshaft was either.

Mineshaft was hurt. I saw the xrays. And Holy Bull was hurt.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Mineshaft was hurt. I saw the xrays. And Holy Bull was hurt.

Did he injure himself in the JCGC?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Everyone was hurt, no one chose to not go.

I remember Point Given had a suspensionary injury or something like that, at the time I was very suspicious he was retired so abruptly following his Travers win and they didn't even entertain the thought of bringing him back. The public was probably robbed a chance to see him perform against older horses. Beating up on the likes of Dollar Bill & AP Valentine didn't impress me as much as others. This one smelled....

[King Glorious]

You can see x-rays of any horse and see something. Mineshaft wasn't hurt. His owner had no intention of sending him to the BC. How is it that you can say you horse's last race will be the JCGC and then after that, say you want to go to the BC but then you come up with an injury that you say was actually there before the BC? Just like Frankel with Sightseek in 2004.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Mineshaft was hurt. I saw the xrays. And Holy Bull was hurt.

He was a good horse but I would never call him great.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Everyone was hurt, no one chose to not go.

Holy Bull passed the BC as a 3YO. If I remember correctly, he was not BC-nominated and Jimmy Croll wasn't going to pay the supplement. He was hurt in the Donn as a 4YO.