Lava Man back in training?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by LARHAGE

Stem cell therapy can not fix the fact this horse was no longer competitive.

Yes, it can.

And it apparently did.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

Or the breeding farm (Saint Liam, age 6) or the retirement home (Kona Gold, age 15), to mention two painful reminders.

--Dunbar

exactly-there's no guarantees for them, just like for us. saint liam was off to a life of relative leisure, as was kona gold. how many broodmares each year that are lost....it's just like life for everyone else-highs, lows and everything in between.
i just find it odd that so often people complain when a horse retires at three, but a few years later they're way too old? eight is relatively young for a horse. how many of john henry's performances would we not have had he quit at eight?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Just throwing it out there, but that vet has a lot to gain if this is successful..

Not that much (other than a big name horse in his hands, but he's had plenty of those already). Plenty of vets in large and small animal doing stem cell and/or IRAP.

[Riot]

For grins, the following numbers of horses (by age) are in today:

Arlington Park: (three-year-old and up):
Age 3 - 14
4 - 17
5 - 12
6 - 2
7 - 2

Belmont Park: (three-year-old and up):
Age 3 - 19
4 - 16
5 - 14
6 - 6
7 - 2
8 - 2

Australia "A: (steeplechase):
Age 5 - 1
6 - 1
8 - 4
9 - 1
10 - 1

Australia "A": (hurdle):
Age 5 - 1
6 - 1
7 - 1
8 - 1
9 - 1

Australia "A": (flat turf, handicap and open) keep in mind a horse there called "four" is three-years-old here, due to inversed season difference:
Age 3 - 1
4 - 17
5 - 25
6 - 11
7 - 10
8 - 7
9 - 2
10 - 1
11 - 1

[Cannon Shell]

I think the point that many seem to be missing here is that Lava Man was once a big name horse who was scheduled to be sent to a retirement home after having hit hard times on the track. The fact that an unusual amount of vet work was done on a horse scheduled to be retired raises flags as does the announcement of his relocation to a high profile KY retirement home and the 180 degree reversal. If he were to breakdown can you imagine how this would look? Obviously O"Neil does by not taking his % (a preemptive move). Sure horses can compete at an advanced age. Sure horses can recover from injuries. Sure the advances in science are great. But how can this be a positive except for the long, long shot that he is able to compete at the "higest levels"? Almost anyway you look at it this will be seen as greedy people trying to squeeze a few more pennies out of a cash cow.

And they may be right.

[RolloTomasi]

Wasn't Lava Man, during the height of his success, compared to both John Henry and Seabiscuit? Perhaps his connections are trying to further the somewhat forced fantasy (doesn't this horse have his own DVD?) by emulating those champions.

Seabiscuit, as most know, suffered a major injury as a 5yo but returned after more than a year layoff to win the Santa Anita Handicap at age 7.

John Henry, who raced in top class company at age 9 before retiring with an injury, was actually put back into training at age 11 (though the comeback was ultimately aborted).

As far as I can tell, Lava Man was retired because of declining form, not because of an acute, major injury. Recent aged comebacker Perfect Drift had much more distinct problems and made a decent (3rd to BC winner Albertus Maximus), albeit brief, comeback.

While coming back in top class company may be a bit of stretch, if he can be as modestly successful as fellow Cal-breds Best Pal and Cavonnier, it would be a good story.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think the point that many seem to be missing here is that Lava Man was once a big name horse who was scheduled to be sent to a retirement home after having hit hard times on the track. The fact that an unusual amount of vet work was done on a horse scheduled to be retired raises flags as does the announcement of his relocation to a high profile KY retirement home and the 180 degree reversal. If he were to breakdown can you imagine how this would look? Obviously O"Neil does by not taking his % (a preemptive move). Sure horses can compete at an advanced age. Sure horses can recover from injuries. Sure the advances in science are great. But how can this be a positive except for the long, long shot that he is able to compete at the "higest levels"? Almost anyway you look at it this will be seen as greedy people trying to squeeze a few more pennies out of a cash cow.

And they may be right.

[Riot]

Almost anyway you look at it this will be seen as greedy people trying to squeeze a few more pennies out of a cash cow.

Not by me. But if you feel that way, fine.

A snippet from the good article 'Zig posted:

Trainer Doug O'Neill has some advice for the bloggers and chat-room regulars who have been bashing the Lava Man camp for sending the 8-year-old gelding back into training this week in hopes of a possible comeback.
"I would have them e-mail or talk to the doctor himself and ask him, `OK doc, off the record, if it was different owners and a different trainer, would you advise them to put this horse back in training?' He would say 100 percent yes," O'Neill said.

"People are going to have their own view. I am getting e-mails, people saying I should be ashamed of myself. You just respect their views and hope you're doing the right thing because in your heart you know it's right."

The last time we saw Lava Man, one of the most popular horses in California racing history, he had finished sixth in the Eddie Read Handicap last summer at Del Mar and was retired because of nagging ankles and declining form.

He was scheduled to eventually wind up at the Old Friends retirement facility in Georgetown, Ky.

But enter Dr. Doug Herthel, founder of Alamo Pintado Equine Medical Hospital, a facility in Los Olivos that specializes in stem-cell therapy.

Lava Man was sent to Alamo Pintado for treatment on his ankles or, as co-owner Steve Kenly said, "The plan wasn't to bring him back, it was just to make him more sound in retirement."

But Lava Man responded so well to therapy that, according to Herthel, he looks like a brand new horse.

Herthel told O'Neill when the gelding returned to Hollywood Park, he'd be the soundest horse in the trainer's barn.

"I went up there about a month ago and watched him train (at Magali Farms in Santa Ynez) and saw it with my own two eyes," O'Neill said. "His ankles are tight and cold, he's training like a beast and he looked great.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think the point that many seem to be missing here is that Lava Man was once a big name horse who was scheduled to be sent to a retirement home after having hit hard times on the track. The fact that an unusual amount of vet work was done on a horse scheduled to be retired raises flags as does the announcement of his relocation to a high profile KY retirement home and the 180 degree reversal. If he were to breakdown can you imagine how this would look? Obviously O"Neil does by not taking his % (a preemptive move). Sure horses can compete at an advanced age. Sure horses can recover from injuries. Sure the advances in science are great. But how can this be a positive except for the long, long shot that he is able to compete at the "higest levels"? Almost anyway you look at it this will be seen as greedy people trying to squeeze a few more pennies out of a cash cow.

And they may be right.

Uhm he a gelding who can certainly earn. If the horse can return to 85% of what he was he would be 95% better then the dog crap that is currently racing. Question... Imagine you trained a 4 mil earner who had ankles issues...You see those ankles better then the day you got this gelding.. Are you taking a shot he can beat the dog biscuits without heart or speed he would have to face? Now toss in a a 48 work that eclipsed his best work at 6?

[Cannon Shell]

Give me a break. This isnt some non-descript 8 year old and I am not some bleeding heart. But if I was writing a script on an anti-horse racing story, this would be about the perfect scenario to have presented to me. IF he were to have an untimely end on a racetrack, please tell me that this wouldnt look horrific? An old gelding, retired and so far gone that a retirement home is already booked and publicly announced, is suddenly put back in training and winds up dead on the track. Yeah try to spin that one positive. The difference between this horse and others like John Henry was that JH was never retired and brought back. The difference between this horse and Brett Favre is that Favre wont get hurt bad enough to have to be put down (no matter how hard Scavs roots for this). The difference is that this horse was the centerpiece of the 2007 Breeders Cup Marketing blitz (Lava Man vs Bernardini) yet is still competing in late 2009/2010 despite not having won an important race since June of 2007. The difference is that he didnt exactly go out on top and is coming back to clean up some unfinished business. The difference is that he still has 9 year old bones and he tries hard, very hard. The difference is the last time these connections "unretired" a horse, she was soon dead. There is almost no upside to this story but there is a whole lot of downside. And no, that isnt my opinion or feeling, it is the reality that we now live with in horse racing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Uhm he a gelding who can certainly earn. If the horse can return to 85% of what he was he would be 95% better then the dog crap that is currently racing. Question... Imagine you trained a 4 mil earner who had ankles issues...You see those ankles better then the day you got this gelding.. Are you taking a shot he can beat the dog biscuits without heart or speed he would have to face? Now toss in a a 48 work that eclipsed his best work at 6?

I dont believe in miracles and fountains of youth. Your grandmother could earn too if you sent her to a sweatshop instead of the retirement home. Doesnt mean you do it.

[Danzig]

from the most recent bloodhorse, got it today...


s j stables 9 year old gelding cloudy's knight felt no effects of a more than one year layoff as he took over in upper stretch and cruised to a comfortable win in the 150k ky cup turf.

this horse won three graded races in '07 including a gr 1. went 0-4 last year, then suffered a tendon injury while finishing eighth last september.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Final 10 Cal dirt races of Lava Man's career:

* Santa Anita Handicap win

* Goodwood win

* Pacific Classic win

* Hollywood Gold Cup win

* Santa Anita Handicap Win

* $1,000,000 Sunshine Millions Classic Win

* 3rd beaten less than a length in Pacific Classic. Won brutal speed duel and was vanned off.

* 120 Beyer Hollywood Gold Cup win

* Gr 2 Californian win

* 100K alw oct clm win when he was entered for the tag

That's 9-for-10 with one heroic defeat.


only 3 synthetic track tries:

* won the Hollywood Gold Cup by a nose over A. P. Xcellent

* 6th beaten 7 lengths to Student Council in the Pac Classic

* 6th beaten 2.5 in the Cal Cup

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Give me a break. This isnt some non-descript 8 year old and I am not some bleeding heart. But if I was writing a script on an anti-horse racing story, this would be about the perfect scenario to have presented to me. IF he were to have an untimely end on a racetrack, please tell me that this wouldnt look horrific? An old gelding, retired and so far gone that a retirement home is already booked and publicly announced, is suddenly put back in training and winds up dead on the track. Yeah try to spin that one positive. The difference between this horse and others like John Henry was that JH was never retired and brought back. The difference between this horse and Brett Favre is that Favre wont get hurt bad enough to have to be put down (no matter how hard Scavs roots for this). The difference is that this horse was the centerpiece of the 2007 Breeders Cup Marketing blitz (Lava Man vs Bernardini) yet is still competing in late 2009/2010 despite not having won an important race since June of 2007. The difference is that he didnt exactly go out on top and is coming back to clean up some unfinished business. The difference is that he still has 9 year old bones and he tries hard, very hard. The difference is the last time these connections "unretired" a horse, she was soon dead. There is almost no upside to this story but there is a whole lot of downside. And no, that isnt my opinion or feeling, it is the reality that we now live with in horse racing.

No, it is your reality. Please put me in the "this is good" camp. Some of this anti-O'Neill stuff seems libelous to me and I'm glad he has the balls to answer the questions of people he surely does not have to give the time of day.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Give me a break. This isnt some non-descript 8 year old and I am not some bleeding heart. But if I was writing a script on an anti-horse racing story, this would be about the perfect scenario to have presented to me. IF he were to have an untimely end on a racetrack, please tell me that this wouldnt look horrific? An old gelding, retired and so far gone that a retirement home is already booked and publicly announced, is suddenly put back in training and winds up dead on the track. Yeah try to spin that one positive. The difference between this horse and others like John Henry was that JH was never retired and brought back. The difference between this horse and Brett Favre is that Favre wont get hurt bad enough to have to be put down (no matter how hard Scavs roots for this). The difference is that this horse was the centerpiece of the 2007 Breeders Cup Marketing blitz (Lava Man vs Bernardini) yet is still competing in late 2009/2010 despite not having won an important race since June of 2007. The difference is that he didnt exactly go out on top and is coming back to clean up some unfinished business. The difference is that he still has 9 year old bones and he tries hard, very hard. The difference is the last time these connections "unretired" a horse, she was soon dead. There is almost no upside to this story but there is a whole lot of downside. And no, that isnt my opinion or feeling, it is the reality that we now live with in horse racing.

I am sure the owners want to earn. I never thought it wasn't about money. More importantly, if they can race the horse sound there is abosultely nothing wrong with racing the gelding if he returns to his better days. So Brass Hat shouldn't run because he is only 90% of what he was?
So if you were in Oneil shoes you would not train Lava Man? I certainly would..He is a horse and IF he is souind WTF.. As for the mare, it happens every single day at some track, training ground or paddock. Horses get killed for every stupid reason in the book. The fact that their mare was a victim may or may not be related. I would assume she would have been a fairly valueable broody so I guess they f'd up royally and would have possibly be even more cautious with Lava Man.
This really is a lot to do about nothing if Lava Man is sound and returns 90% of what he was. I never thought the horse was anything but a juiced game SOB anyway, so I could really give a darn , but geez who really cares if they think he will be seviceable again? Is Funnycide coming back?lol

[Danzig]

this, on the other hand, is a 'comeback' worthy of scorn:

http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid...month=9&day=23

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this, on the other hand, is a 'comeback' worthy of scorn:

http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid...month=9&day=23

If anything could bring back Serling, this would probably be the one.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by chucklestheclown

No, it is your reality. Please put me in the "this is good" camp. Some of this anti-O'Neill stuff seems libelous to me and I'm glad he has the balls to answer the questions of people he surely does not have to give the time of day.

No it isnt my reality. Have you been living under a rock? Your reading comprehension skills rival Riots. That is not a complement.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this, on the other hand, is a 'comeback' worthy of scorn:

http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid...month=9&day=23

Precious stuff

[TropicalStorm]

There are likely two things at play here.

First, the owners like being in the spotlight with a great horse and miss it.

Second, the owners like money.


I would guess 90% of the critics are not much different than the owners and are basically hypocrits who would do the same thing if they had the horse.