Hall of Fame? Yes or No

[somerfrost]

[quote=Cannon Shell]Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro...absolute lock

Vlad Guerrero...yes

Jim Thome...no

John Smoltz...yes

Johnny Damon...no

Trevor Hoffman...yes

Todd Helton...no

Chipper Jones...maybe

Bobby Abreu...no

Gary Sheffield...no

Miguel Tejada...no

Andy Pettite...possibly


Amazed that Ichiro isn't 100%, leaving him out of the Hall would be the biggest crime since Pete Rose!

[2Hot4TV]

QUOTE=Cannon Shell]Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro Big, A BIG yes for hitting it where they anit, work ethic and character.

Vlad Guerrero, NO

Jim Thome, NO

John Smoltz, yes

Johnny Damon, NO

Trevor Hoffman, Yes

Todd Helton, NO

Chipper Jones, too early

Bobby Abreu, NO

Gary Sheffield, NO

Miguel Tejada, NO

Andy Pettite, NO

[timmgirvan]

[quote=Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I guess this as good a place as any to point out the merits of John Smoltz.
His lifetime record is 213 - 155 but considering he lost a year to injury and was a full time closer the following 4 years afterwards it looks a lot more impressive. Had he just pitched normally during those 5 years he would be at around 285-290 right now. The fact that he was able to mid-career become the best relief pitcher in the NL and record 154 saves in 3 1.2 years then go back to the rotation and become one of the leagues best starters at age 37-40 is unparalleled in baseball history. When you look at the other stats like k's, era, whip, k/9, Innings, saves, h/9, bb/9, k/bb, he is clearly HoF caliber. He twice led the league in wins and win%, led the league in k's, Innings pitched and saves. Think about that, led the league in innings pitched and also led in saves. Smoltz won a Cy Young as a starter and finished third as a closer. He also won a silver slugger award.

But what seals the deal is his post season performance. His record was 15-4 with a 2.67 era and 4 saves in 41 games. He was 7-0 with 3 saves in the NLDS. 6-2 with a 2.83 era in the NLCS and 2-2 with a 2.47 era in the WS.

Of the 4 losses one was 2-1 to the Phils in 93, Smoltz gave up both runs unearned.
The 96 loss in the WS was a 1-0 loss when the run was again unearned.
The loss in the 99 series was a 4-1 loss where he gave up 3 runs, all earned.
The 97 loss was the only one where he didnt pitch well, giving up 5 runs in 6 innings in a 5-2 loss.
So in his 4 postseason losses the Braves scored 5 runs while he gave up 8.

He also got a ND in the famous Jack Morris 10 inning series clincher in 1991, going into the 8th and not allowing a run.

He not only is a lock, he is quite deserving.

I'm tired today so I just put up this....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Do you know how easy it is for one to do what you just did? Anyone can can state a totally unsubstantiated charge or accusation against a person. This is so common on here, because it's quick n' easy. You say my logic is mindboggling. That's an effort to distract, and not have to respond to the facts I used. It's a smear. When people disagree with someone, the adult thing to do is simply say you disagree, and respond to the evidence the person used to explain their point of view, or give more evidence in support of your opinion. I don't know why you can't just say you feel your evidence is the more important evidence (instead of attacking someone with a vague accusation.) I gave you a point of view. You stated the facts to support your opinion. I gave the facts supporting my opinion. I respected your opinion, and the facts you supported it with. I don't consider it mindboggling to think a HOF candidate with 108 post season at bats should have more than 5 extra base hits in the post.

It is mindboggling that a person could state that having 5 extra base hits in 108 postseason at bats spread over five years somehow cancels out or trumps what the player in question has accomplished with his other 7948 plate appearances. I suppose A-rod would have been a victim of that same ....unusual....logic.

Especially when that same player has had two game winning or tying singles in the current post season.

Should Ernie Banks be kicked out because he has no post season hits?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is mindboggling that a person could state that having 5 extra base hits in 108 postseason at bats spread over five years somehow cancels out or trumps what the player in question has accomplished with his other 7948 plate appearances. I suppose A-rod would have been a victim of that same ....unusual....logic.

Especially when that same player has had two game winning or tying singles in the current post season.

Should Ernie Banks be kicked out because he has no post season hits?

Thank you. I much prefer you to state "why" you feel someone is this or that. I value the post season stuff more than you do. If someone is a great player, then they need to show it on the biggest stage. That's true in any sport, or in any other type of entertainment. I don't believe post-season performance cancels anything out. I see it as something(a good post season performance) that should be present. Yea, AROD has choked a lot in the post, but he finally performed well there. Why are ya bringing him up, though? He's a D.Q. He juiced. That's a D.Q. I find it mind boggling that you would consider putting juicers in the HOF. Yes, you could possibly say that some players performance before( or after juicing) should be counted. Is that what you're reasoning is, or are you attending the Jeff Skilling School of ethics? To me, it's a bad message to society to allow them in. I don't want them arrested, or punished in any other way than this (HOF D.Q.) As a trainer, you have to compete against cheaters. If you aren't also cheatin', then they've cost you n' your clients money. That's one thing, but voting them into some honorable club is another. Far as Ernie Banks goes, that was before players were able to have the freedom to join clubs in order to get a chance to be in the post. Now, a great player will find their way to the post. People think Tex is great. Well, he isn't in Texas anymore. He's good enough that he was able to go sign with a team that would get to the post.

[PeteMugg]

Rizzuto is in.

I'd say we could pretty much make a case for anyone who's been to a game.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I told ya that #27 is stupid. Please tell me how any future HOFamer can be standing between 1st n' 2nd when a no-out pop fly is being caught in short right field. I don't get that. I now name this future HOFamer Ricky Retardo. I've seen him play plenty. Now you see just how stupid he can be. People in SOCAL (like me n' this 2HOT4TV) have seen this guy play a lot. Notice we aren't so sure we want someone this stupid in the HOF. That's a supermush. So, come on Mr. Retardo, and show you're the great future HOFamer they're talking about. Hit some bombs n' gap jobs.

[Cannon Shell]

You think Steve Garvey should be in. Enough said...

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You think Steve Garvey should be in. Enough said...

At least he has a ring, n' went to the World Series what? 5 times? It's not a crime if he isn't in, but it's a crime that a lesser player (Perez) did get in.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You think Steve Garvey should be in. Enough said...

Effort to distract.....Fully noted.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

If VLADE hits it out right now(against Rivera,) then I'll change my vote.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

What the hell. He knocked in a run against a future HOF reliever. He's had 3 hits in a big post game. I change my vote.

Vladimar Guerrero (Ricky Retardo)- YES

[hockey2315]

Ichiro - duh

Vlad Guerrero - yes

Jim Thome - no

John Smoltz - yes

Johnny Damon - umm no

Trevor Hoffman - yes

Todd Helton - yes

Chipper Jones - probably

Bobby Abreu - no

Gary Sheffield - can't be objective

Miguel Tejada - umm no

Andy Pettite - maybe

[onebadbeast]

go yankees!! go cheese fries!!

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You think Steve Garvey should be in. Enough said...

Garvey had that classic batting stance and a perfect swing of the bat, great glove at first bace, but he had "Steve Sax syndrom". He threw like a girl.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Garvey had that classic batting stance and a perfect swing of the bat, great glove at first bace, but he had "Steve Sax syndrom". He threw like a girl.

It was pretty ugly. Wasn't that innacurate. Just mainly ugly.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

What the hell. He knocked in a run against a future HOF reliever. He's had 3 hits in a big post game. I change my vote.

Vladimar Guerrero (Ricky Retardo)- YES

Nobody on the Angels wanted to sept up and play the game.

Sad thing was that if Vlad had hit a timely homer to win the game last night and the Angels went on to win game 7 he still had a chance to be MVP. Now that was sad.

Vlad is out of here along with Chone "I Cant hit when it counts" Figgins.

Anybody need Gary Mathew jr??????????

[SniperSB23]

Ichiro YES

Vlad Guerrero YES

Jim Thome YES but barely

John Smoltz YES

Johnny Damon NO

Trevor Hoffman NO but he'll probably get in

Todd Helton NO

Chipper Jones YES

Bobby Abreu NO

Gary Sheffield YES

Miguel Tejada NO, steroids will cost him votes

Andy Pettite NO

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

Nobody on the Angels wanted to sept up and play the game.

Sad thing was that if Vlad had hit a timely homer to win the game last night and the Angels went on to win game 7 he still had a chance to be MVP. Now that was sad.

Vlad is out of here along with Chone "I Cant hit when it counts" Figgins.

Anybody need Gary Mathew jr??????????

Well, Vlad had 14 hits (with 3 doubles, and a home run) and 7 RBI in this post. He had 7 hits n' 4 walks in last years post (but just 1 extra-base hit, and no RBI.) The last 2 years, he has a .474 obp in the post. He has now elevated his post-season batting average to a respectable .286. He will go into the Hall with just 6 post season extra-base hits, and no ring. He did enough (with decaying skills) in this post for me to say he's a HOFamer, but his lack of intellect (and plate discipline) kept him from being the difference maker he should of been. A classic example of that was shown last night. He reaches for an outside pitch about 5 inches off the ground, and somehow gets a bloop double. If he takes that pitch for a ball, then he might of had a chance to get a better pitch to hit. One that could of been put in the seats. The game also has an example of his low intellect. Nobody should ever be standing between 1st n' 2nd when a no-out pop fly is being caught in short right field. This game is a good example of this guy's skill, but it's also a great example of someone who is pretty stupid. Takes a lot of talent to get a stupid person into the HOF.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Well, Vlad had 14 hits (with 3 doubles, and a home run) and 7 RBI in this post. He had 7 hits n' 4 walks in last years post (but just 1 extra-base hit, and no RBI.) The last 2 years, he has a .474 obp in the post. He has now elevated his post-season batting average to a respectable .286. He will go into the Hall with just 6 post season extra-base hits, and no ring. He did enough (with decaying skills) in this post for me to say he's a HOFamer, but his lack of intellect (and plate discipline) kept him from being the difference maker he should of been.

I love when people talk about no rings as a negative for a player. Like the other 24 guys on the team dont share a part in the good or bad. It is baseball, not golf or tennis.