Crist: The great distaffers.. - Page 4

CSC · #61 06-21-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Let me get this straight.....

Zenyatta is an all-time great as long as she doesn't have to be compared to horses from all times?

At least now I get it. Maybe it is the Z that puts her over the top.

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

blackthroatedwind · #62 06-21-2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change.

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

10 pnt move up · #63 06-21-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

RolloTomasi · #64 06-21-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

I can't argue opinion, and I don't understand your last sentence, why would someone backpedal if Zenyatta wins the BC Classic and perhaps a race in NY say that race is the Beldame? Unless they are already biased against her. What are you talking about? Is that still not good enough for you?

You backpedaled because you were the one who tried to goad people into comparing her with Personal Ensign.

A couple of us obliged you and responded.

Your reply:

The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete

Look out.

Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

blackthroatedwind · #65 06-21-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

You're kidding....right?

I never said I was specifically talking about this board.

RockHardTen1985 · #66 06-21-2010, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You throw around great like nerf balls.

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Andy, based on what? Class, speed? I have BB pp's right here and it all looks pretty similar.

Cannon Shell · #67 06-21-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

Come on now, do you compare Hank Aaron to Barry Bonds exactly the same, times change and evaluating athletes change. The fact is you really can't compare the two.

Uh why couldn't you compare Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?

slotdirt · #68 06-21-2010, 08:22 PM

It would be more difficult to compare Barry Bonds to, say, Frank "Home Run" Baker than it would Hank Aaron.

It's called a "modern" era, which would be why the all-time wins record isn't held by Kinscem or some other pre-1900 horse.

CSC · #69 06-21-2010, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You backpedaled because you were the one who tried to goad people into comparing her with Personal Ensign.

A couple of us obliged you and responded.

Your reply:

The only thing I will say about Zenyatta right now is most are comparing her to Personal Ensign's record with her career incomplete

Look out.

Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear.

Who backpedaled? you make it sound that if she goes on to win the BC and whatever races in between now and then, that it would be outrageous to compare her to Personal Ensign. I understand this whole thing of comparing one era to another is subjective. But why can't others have an opinion that she belongs with the alltime greats? Is it really that outrageous? Others who have infinitely more experience in the game than myself and probably even yourself believe so. Does that make them wrong?

CSC · #70 06-21-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Uh why couldn't you compare Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds?

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

Cannon Shell · #71 06-21-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

CSC · #72 06-21-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Exactly?

Sorry, but when someone says " Zenyatta is the best mare of all time " I take that as a comparison to horses from all times....just as I would assume the same comparison if someone said Barry Bonds was the best of all time.

Who wouldn't?

But, I guess those rules are different for Zenyatta.

However, herein lies part of the problem. There seems a need for Zenyatta's fans to declare her as the best horse ever, or something of the like, which I suppose eminates from their unquenchable envy of Rachel Alexandra for her HOY title, as opposed to just ( and when I say " just " I am rolling my eyes ) settling for some version of " great. " Declaring she is something she is not only diminishes her.

I would think all of the 3, maybe 4 Zenyatta fans on this board never would say she is the best racemare of all time at this point, plus I don't think anyone other than SO really cares about HOY in 09 or 10, but that's his schtick and considering the over the top admiration of the one filly here for the past year, it is refreshing to some or atleast to myself it is.

Gaining Ground · #73 06-21-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

seriously, who has claimed she is the greatest of all time on this board, other than maybe Smooth Operator?

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

Indian Charlie · #74 06-21-2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

Oh, hush up.

CSC · #75 06-21-2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They play under the same rules, on the same size fields, playing the same amount of games. They are easily compared especially when you factor their production against the players of the same years, i.e. how they performed against what the league average was for any particular year or set of years. Are players better conditioned or do they workout more? Sure but so do the pitchers that they face.

At least baseball players don't get to choose what pitchers they want to face and aren't afraid of crossing mountains. (except the Red Sox according to Gales)

The game is just different Cannon, it keeps evolving, think about it Ruth was once a pitcher in addition to being an everyday player. You could never do that in today's game.

zippyneedsawin · #76 06-21-2010, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

It's very tough to say exactly how he would have done today, players are better conditioned, workout more, use performance enhancers...ect...a clean Hank Aaron would be more in the vein of a Ken Griffey Jr. rather than a Mcguire, Sosa, or Bonds.

ESPN's Tim Kurkjin (sp?) relayed a discussion he recently had with Frank Robinson where he asked the HOF how many home runs he thought he could hit in a season against today's players.. Robinson replied 30. When Kurkjin laughed.. robinson scoffed and said, 'oh yeah? 35!"

CSC · #77 06-21-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

ESPN's Tim Kurkjin (sp?) relayed a discussion he recently had with Frank Robinson where he asked the HOF how many home runs he thought he could hit in a season against today's players.. Robinson replied 30. When Kurkjin laughed.. robinson scoffed and said, 'oh yeah? 35!"

Bucky Dent could hit 20 homeruns today on the right diet.

zippyneedsawin · #78 06-21-2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

I think this is obvious, if any horse that has plans being there is healthy and in good form, barring a season ending after the Woodward for some.

Yes, because running 8 races in 7 months.. at 7 different tracks.. in 6 different stakes.. including 3 against males (1 against older males).. two races in two weeks (Oaks & Preakness).. and all as a 3 YEAR OLD.. is much less taxing than starting the season in May and racing 5 times.. all in california.

10 pnt move up · #79 06-21-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You're kidding....right?

I never said I was specifically talking about this board.

I just think your promoting, without proper context, this idea that the majority of Zenyatta fans are delusional about her ability and place in history, its just not accurate.

10 pnt move up · #80 06-21-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

does steve davidowitz count because he said it and is technically a member of the board?

yes he did, but like I mentioned in my response there seems to be this growing majority coming out of no where when I read many posts, its just not accurate.

Zenyatta is very very very good. I have no idea if she is better than Lady's Secret, or Susans Girl, or any other great mare from the past. She runs on a different surface 80% of the time.