The Boss has passed.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

That's fine. It's not inaccurate when comparing pitchers, and Catfish Hunter is nestled right in between Doyle Alexander, John Tudor, and Bruce Hurst at 195 all time in WAR for pitchers.

You know who Hunter's career compares favorably to? Vida Blue. Where's his HOF plaque?

You can't discount Hunters great years pitching for the best team(it helps because the games are perceived as more important), in the biggest spots. He not only was outstanding during the rise of the A's but he was also an accomplished playoff pitcher which somehow counts more to voters. The fact that his high was so high, though brief, gets him in. If his innings had been managed more prudently he almost assuredly would have had a longer and more sucessful career. Compare his usage with Don Sutton's during the same era. he didnt just go from being great (and he was great 71-74) to being not so great for no reason. He probably should have not even been pitching the last 2 years.

The fact that Hunter played under two of the most notorious owners in history shouldnt be lost on anyone either. Again I am not saying that he is one of the top 30 pitchers of all time.

Vida Blue was Gooden before Gooden was Gooden. Another mismanaged career.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

too many night games killed baseball

there were more days games in the 50's and 60's

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You must be pulling my leg...

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You must be pulling my leg...

chuck if you don't think the game has grown over the last 30 -35 yrs , you are mistaken

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Luis Tiant has better numbers than Catfish Hunter. Sorry, no plaque for him in Hall of Very Good. Likewise Jim Kaat. Bert Blyleven was five times the pitcher Jim Hunter was, yet he's barely getting anywhere near the requisite vote for enshrinement.

Let's just face facts that because Hunter was a Yankee during some very good seasons in the late 70's (not unlike Waite Hoyt and others who were inducted as sort of a team honor from those awesome 20's teams), he is in the Hall of Fame. There's really no other logical reason to have included him, great three or four seasons or not. I'm really most surprised Roger Maris never saw the Hall as his career arc really wasn't much different as a hitter than Hunter's was as a pitcher.

I really don't think that hunter's election had anything to do with his yankee career. If anything those were his worst years and lead people like you to detract from his overall career. He was the best pitcher on the best team in baseball, one that won three WS in a row in a very controversial manner. He won 20 games 5 times in a row during that time. He was a very good "clutch" ie playoff pitcher.

Catfish Hunter is hardly the worst player in the hall of Fame. He wasnt far off from winning 4 Cy Youngs in a row. You want to kill him because his career was much shorter than a lot of other HoF pitchers and hence the few not so great years weigh his numbers down. But he was consistently great for 10 years. That's HoF worthy. Explain Rick Ferrell.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck if you don't think the game has grown over the last 30 -35 yrs , you are mistaken

Dude what are you talking about? On one hand you say that night games killed the game and in the next post you say the game has grown?


All sports have grown in the last 35 years except boxing and horseracing.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dude what are you talking about? On one hand you say that night games killed the game and in the next post you say the game has grown?


All sports have grown in the last 35 years except boxing and horseracing.

the night games have killed it vs football , all the football games are during the day , kids can't stay up and watch all 162 games for all 9 innings

football has grown better than baseball , but baseball has still grown

[slotdirt]

Ferrell was Veterans Committee. Those selections shouldn't even count since that was basically authorized cronyism for the first 50 or so years it was in existence. You can't compare that with the writers vote, where I'd put Hunter in a group with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson for worst overall selections.

The Veterans Committee also stuck Tinkers-Evers-Chance in the HOF as well as such luminaries as the aforementioned Roger Breshnaham in Cooperstown.

[Crown@club]

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

[slotdirt]

Do you have ERA+ available? I think that tells a much better tale for pitchers.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Ferrell was Veterans Committee. Those selections shouldn't even count since that was basically authorized cronyism for the first 50 or so years it was in existence. You can't compare that with the writers vote, where I'd put Hunter in a group with Jim Rice and Andre Dawson for worst overall selections.

The Veterans Committee also stuck Tinkers-Evers-Chance in the HOF as well as such luminaries as the aforementioned Roger Breshnaham in Cooperstown.

Now there's a condition?

[slotdirt]

Well, now it's a public vote and isn't made up of Ted Williams and his 10 best friends. They basically stuck all their buddies in the HOF until the rules were changed in 2001 and again later in the 2000's. Half the really debatable guys in the HOF were elected through the Veterans Committee.

[slotdirt]

Here is a good list of inductees by year separated by BBWAA and Old-Timers/Veterans Committee inductees. Some of the Veterans Committe inductees (Hack Wilson, Heinie Manush, Goose Goslin, Branch Rickey, etc.) were probably worthwhile, but others (Jesse Haines, Roger Breshnahan, etc.), were most certainly not.

http://www.historicbaseball.com/hof/hallinductees.html

[slotdirt]

Dang, Arky Vaughan needed the Veterans Committee? Probably one of the six or eight best shortstops of all time. That was a BBWAA mistake.

[santana]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Wow. Not cool.

I agree with you.....wht a putz.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

........................Yrs.........W-L.........ERA.......CG........SHO........ Whip
Don Sutton 23.....324-256...... 3.26...... 178....... 58......... 1.1425
Catfish Hunter 15.....224-166...... 3.26...... 181....... 42......... 1.1342
Jim Bunning 17.....224-184...... 3.27...... 151....... 40......... 1.1789
Clark Griffith 21.....237-146...... 3.31...... 337....... 22......... 1.3127
Fergie Jenkins 19.....284-226...... 3.34...... 267....... 49......... 1.1419
Lefty Gomez 14.....189-102...... 3.34...... 173....... 28......... 1.3524
Phil Niekro 24.....318-274...... 3.35...... 245....... 45......... 1.2681
Robin Roberts 19.....286-245...... 3.41...... 305....... 45......... 1.1697
Burleigh Grimes 19.....270-212...... 3.53...... 314....... 35......... 1.3653
Early Wynn 23.....300-244...... 3.54...... 290....... 49......... 1.3291
Waite Hoyt 21.....237-182...... 3.59...... 226....... 26......... 1.3397
Jesse Haines 19.....210-158...... 3.64...... 208....... 24......... 1.3498
Ted Lyons 21.....260-230...... 3.67...... 356....... 27......... 1.3482
Red Ruffing HOF 22.....273-225...... 3.8........ 335....... 45......... 1.3409

Took Drysdale and Perry out as I figure they are better pitchers. I would put Catfish on par with Sutton. Better than the POS Bunning. Better than Jenkins, Niekro, Robin Roberts.

But I look at this and wonder how in the heck guys like Clark Griffith, Lefty Gomez, Burleigh Grimes, Waite Hoyt, Jessie Haines, Ted Lyons and Red Ruffing are in the HOF?

I guess Early Wynn is in because of the magical number of 300 Wins.

I dont know why you would think Drysdale and Perry were so much better. Drysdale pitched right in the middle of the teeth of the best pitchers era in 60 years and his numbers are hardly better than a lot of these guys even with that. Perry had a lot of good years abut had a lot of pretty average years as well.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Player free agency should be your target here, not an owner willing spend a lot of money to improve his product.

Player movement has disrupted fan allegiance, not an owner like Steinbrenner.

Free agency is only a problem is baseball
Steinbrenner is a major reason why.
No one can say he didnt spend to try to make his teams better especially compared to those which still profit while letting the on field product suffer. But you can also say that his spending was a major reason why MLB never was able to rein in free agency and come up with a better system of player movement/salary cap.

I am not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing in his shoes. But he is one of the core reasons why there is a competitive imbalance in baseball.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Wow. Not cool.

How many great homebreds did Steinbrenner have?
How many did Springstein have?

[slotdirt]

Springsteen's daughter is a pretty accomplished equestrian. Regardless, even in jest, it's poor taste to wish death upon anybody.

[pgiaco]

RIP Mr. Steinbrenner. As a lifelong Yankees fan at times during his stewardship I disliked him and admired him...the bottom line is the Yankees won. He was also a very charitable man under the radar.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont know why you would think Drysdale and Perry were so much better. Drysdale pitched right in the middle of the teeth of the best pitchers era in 60 years and his numbers are hardly better than a lot of these guys even with that. Perry had a lot of good years abut had a lot of pretty average years as well.

I was just looking at pure numbers standpoint.