Jones on HDG and weight

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

I'm not sure, but I think golf and bowling (local stuff, not professional) have handicap events. Your handicap allowance only gets you closer to even. you would still have to raise your game to win.

My point is I don't think a weight allowance should be applied to make all horses even, merely to close the gap. You're right, Porter's attitude is laughable. But hey, some say HDG is unworthy of horse of the year, then turn around and say they should carry so much more weight. Both can't be right, can they?

Weight allowances are used in non-handicap claiming, allowances and stakes races every day. I ran a 4 year old filly in a maiden special weight race yesterday that was giving 9 pounds to the 3 year olds in the race (most of which were better than her anyway). I wasnt thrilled about it (hell I wanted to run in a maiden 25k but those races never fill going long on the dirt) but the point is that ordinary horses give weight in races every day. There is no reason why the best horses shouldnt be held to the standard as well.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Weight allowances are used in non-handicap claiming, allowances and stakes races every day. I ran a 4 year old filly in a maiden special weight race yesterday that was giving 9 pounds to the 3 year olds in the race (most of which were better than her anyway). I wasnt thrilled about it (hell I wanted to run in a maiden 25k but those races never fill going long on the dirt) but the point is that ordinary horses give weight in races every day. There is no reason why the best horses shouldnt be held to the standard as well.

I didn't say there shouldn't be any weight given, just that it didn't have to make all horses even. Obviously, the amount is up to debate, but fair and even aren't necessarily the same thing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

I didn't say there shouldn't be any weight given, just that it didn't have to make all horses even. Obviously, the amount is up to debate, but fair and even aren't necessarily the same thing.

Why else would you have weight differences?
In a handicap race that is the goal regardless of your interpretation of fairness. Why do you think weight is given under allowance conditions? The same reason, recent winners or older horses usually carry more weight. Why you believe this would be considered unfair for handicap stakes but not allowance races is beyond me.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why else would you have weight differences?
In a handicap race that is the goal regardless of your interpretation of fairness. Why do you think weight is given under allowance conditions? The same reason, recent winners or older horses usually carry more weight. Why you believe this would be considered unfair for handicap stakes but not allowance races is beyond me.

So if weight is assigned to make all horses even, it should make the morning line simple enough, about 10-1 for each entrant. I guess It's just never been my interpretation that a handicap race seemed so even across the board.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

So if weight is assigned to make all horses even, it should make the morning line simple enough, about 10-1 for each entrant. I guess It's just never been my interpretation that a handicap race seemed so even across the board.

it's not an exact science, they still have to run the race. theoretically, if weighted correctly, the horses would be in a blanket finish.
surely you've heard of some of the more famous races out there, such as citation and noor? people wouldn't still talk about matches like that had citation not been carrying a lot of weight, giving a lot of weight, and still gutting it out to the finish.
you can bet your behind no one will be talking about HDG in that fashion.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

I didn't say there shouldn't be any weight given, just that it didn't have to make all horses even. Obviously, the amount is up to debate, but fair and even aren't necessarily the same thing.

As has been mentioned, making all horses even is kinda the whole point of the weighting system in a handicap race. The reason Man O' War didn't run at age 4 is that a racing secretary basically told Riddle that he'd be topping 140 regularly, and they didn't want to risk Man O' War by loading him up the way he'd need to be to make him equal with other horses. He was already having a hard time coming up with opponents. He carried 130 as a 2yo several times and 138 as a 3yo.

I know Havre de Grace isn't Man O' War but c'mon. If Porter thinks giving up 5-10 lbs is a travesty, I guess he wouldn't do like Mr. Riddle and send his horse to post giving up as much as 32 lbs. Why race this mare if they won't let her run under the weights a HOY should against lesser competition? I thought Porter calling out Pope was inappropriate. He didn't pull that number or the number for any other horse out of his arse. Bravo to Oaklawn for having integrity and calling their bluff. If this is how it's gonna be all year, it'd have been better for everyone to retire her. I can't bring myself to give them a pat on the back for keeping her in under these circumstances. Race her against boys, you'll get your precious weight break, and it'll be more entertaining for everyone.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

As has been mentioned, making all horses even is kinda the whole point of the weighting system in a handicap race. The reason Man O' War didn't run at age 4 is that a racing secretary basically told Riddle that he'd be topping 140 regularly, and they didn't want to risk Man O' War by loading him up the way he'd need to be to make him equal with other horses. He was already having a hard time coming up with opponents. He carried 130 as a 2yo several times and 138 as a 3yo.

I know Havre de Grace isn't Man O' War but c'mon. If Porter thinks giving up 5-10 lbs is a travesty, I guess he wouldn't do like Mr. Riddle and send his horse to post giving up as much as 32 lbs. Why race this mare if they won't let her run under the weights a HOY should against lesser competition? I thought Porter calling out Pope was inappropriate. He didn't pull that number or the number for any other horse out of his arse. Bravo to Oaklawn for having integrity and calling their bluff. If this is how it's gonna be all year, it'd have been better for everyone to retire her. I can't bring myself to give them a pat on the back for keeping her in under these circumstances. Race her against boys, you'll get your precious weight break, and it'll be more entertaining for everyone.

But isn't there a chance, that his hissy fit will pay off in the long run? Isn't it almost like a supply and demand type deal, where tracks will cave in to Porter's demand so HVG runs at their track? I'm not saying that she has the drawing power of Rachael or Zenyatta (West of the Rockies ), but you would think that it would be benificial to the track to have one todays stars run at their track. So while Oaklawn is being applauded for standing up to him, aren't they just cutting their nose to spite their face?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

But isn't there a chance, that his hissy fit will pay off in the long run? Isn't it almost like a supply and demand type deal, where tracks will cave in to Porter's demand so HVG runs at their track? I'm not saying that she has the drawing power of Rachael or Zenyatta (West of the Rockies ), but you would think that it would be benificial to the track to have one todays stars run at their track. So while Oaklawn is being applauded for standing up to him, aren't they just cutting their nose to spite their face?

I think that the supposed benefit of having this particular filly run at your track would easily be off set by having a 4 horse field with her a 2-5 fav. The money they will lose in handle as opposed to a larger, more competitive field will probably be greater than the added attendance and extra hot dogs sold. IMO Oaklawn didn't stand up to him as much as Pope simply weighted the race fairly. If Mr Porter feels that the weights are unfair than he can just keep her in weight for age races and stakes run under allowance conditions however to act as though thse weights weren't accurately made is a joke. If anything she may have been assigned too little weight especially considering that many of the lower weighted horses would probably wind up with jocks who are a few pounds over anyway.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PeteMugg

So if weight is assigned to make all horses even, it should make the morning line simple enough, about 10-1 for each entrant. I guess It's just never been my interpretation that a handicap race seemed so even across the board.

The problem is that they usually are already underweighting the top horses in order to get them to run. HDG should give some of the lightweights that may run against her 15-18 pounds but they rarely will do it. Plus it is hard to find a jockey that can do 105. So Porter is complaining about a process which probably already skewed in his favor because his horse is probably not being assigned enough weight and the lower weights are being given too much.

[PeteMugg]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem is that they usually are already underweighting the top horses in order to get them to run. HDG should give some of the lightweights that may run against her 15-18 pounds but they rarely will do it. Plus it is hard to find a jockey that can do 105. So Porter is complaining about a process which probably already skewed in his favor because his horse is probably not being assigned enough weight and the lower weights are being given too much.

Best explanation I've heard yet. Of course, how much weight is what is up for debate. Clearly HDG connections will fight for all they can get in their favor. Thanks.

[Cannon Shell]

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/stor...ght-ridiculous

[rpncaine]

Great article...really miss Gary West on ATR.

[Danzig]

loved it, glad you posted the link.

what caught my eye most the other day in porters ridiculous rant was his assertion that the racing secretary shouldn't be the one producing the winner...but isn't that exactly what porter is trying to make happen? that his horse not carry enough that would give someone else a chance.
but, as was said the in the article, the few pounds she's giving aren't enough to make a difference between victory and defeat.

maybe steve could get porter on the show, and call him out!

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...som?source=rss


For owner Rick Porter and trainer Larry Jones, Plan A is to run Horse of the Year Havre de Grace in the $500,000 Apple Blossom Handicap (gr. I) April 13. However, the connections have also made one thing clear: They will only do so under the right weight conditions.



“Look, we know we’re going to have to carry more weight than most horses in the country. We understand that. But I’m also not fixing to give a multiple grade I winner a lot of weight just because we have an Eclipse Award that was done off of votes and doesn’t take into account what happened on the racetrack. I’m not going to spot a lot of weight to a horse that has as many grade Is as we have.
“We could look at the Oaklawn Handicap, but then again, it’s a handicap too. So if we don’t like the weight we’re carrying against the boys we don’t have to run her at all. We always have other options.”

On the NZ racing thread ed pointed out that Mufhasa is carrying 61 kg in the Easter H. this coming weekend.

140 pounds.

Just sayin.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

On the NZ racing thread ed pointed out that Mufhasa is carrying 61 kg in the Easter H. this coming weekend.

140 pounds.

Just sayin.

But how much would Absinthe Minded carry if she was cross entered?

[_ed_]

Well, the majority of the Easter Handicap field (including multiple stakes winner Alegrio) will be carrying 54kg (119 pounds).

And the bottom five runners will carry 52kg (114 pounds).

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that the supposed benefit of having this particular filly run at your track would easily be off set by having a 4 horse field with her a 2-5 fav. The money they will lose in handle as opposed to a larger, more competitive field will probably be greater than the added attendance and extra hot dogs sold. IMO Oaklawn didn't stand up to him as much as Pope simply weighted the race fairly. If Mr Porter feels that the weights are unfair than he can just keep her in weight for age races and stakes run under allowance conditions however to act as though thse weights weren't accurately made is a joke. If anything she may have been assigned too little weight especially considering that many of the lower weighted horses would probably wind up with jocks who are a few pounds over anyway.

Amen. You know 123 is ridiculous for a HOY and 5yo mare. What weight should she be carrying? They deflate them so much these days. If she carried what's fair against her own sex in the Apple Blossom for instance, what does she go to post with? There needs to be a term for throwing your weight around over what they assign your horse. Name it after Bobby Frankel.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Amen. You know 123 is ridiculous for a HOY and 5yo mare. What weight should she be carrying? They deflate them so much these days. If she carried what's fair against her own sex in the Apple Blossom for instance, what does she go to post with? There needs to be a term for throwing your weight around over what they assign your horse. Name it after Bobby Frankel.

oh, but that was just an arbitrary voter decision.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

On the NZ racing thread ed pointed out that Mufhasa is carrying 61 kg in the Easter H. this coming weekend.

140 pounds.

Just sayin.

Synchronised is carrying 164lbs 4.5miles and jumping over 30 fences this Saturday.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Danzig

oh, but that was just an arbitrary voter decision.

Porter basically goes 'oh that was based on a voting contest, and doesn't account for what happened on the track.' Wha-huh? If we were voting for the horse we liked the most, and it didn't matter what their racetrack accomplishments were, heck, let's start taking nominations and do a re-vote. I think we'd get a pretty fun group of HOY finalists from that. Come one, come all. Optional claimers with a great personality, a pretty blaze, whatever, you're eligible!...let's do this!