Lasix enhances performance

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

Carry on.

[Round Pen]

Has anyone actually taken the time to read the link in the NY times article which directs you to the Minutes from the KRHC meeting I think Dr Sids Comments start at Page 169 (I think). HE has the Solution to Stop Horses From Bleeding,The only thing is You might have to live in Fantasy land to Implement his ideals.

[Round Pen]

Was Just reading on the Thorograph Forum and ran accross this comment about this subject which I wanted to share with You guys:

Brief comment as requested by TGJB:

Lasix as one injection prior to a race or work has a predictably very minor and small raise in blood pH, nowhere near what milkshaking does to the blood pH. The TCO2 levels we measure, what is "over" and not, takes this small and predictable rise into consideration. It is about the same alkalynizing effect as some normal feeds and weather.

This vet is way over the line calling lasix the same as a milkshake. That's patently absurd.

And it sure sounds like this guy was involved with (exposed to) alot of cheating. But he says he was with standardbreds in the 1960's, 70's, 80's so yes, that was true 30 years ago (standardbred guys would do anything to a horse - the thoroughbred guys would follow their leads)

It's no longer 30 years ago.

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

Carry on.

Reading this guy's never ending, misguided, ridiculous, inaccurate rantings has me wanting to blow my own head off. I feel dumber for having read them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't care if horses get Lasix, but it should be fair. There are other ways around it. Why not give horses not using it a 5 pound weight break and/or make the price to claim them higher?

What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?

Is it fair that Sheikh Mo's trainers have an unlimited budget to treat their horses with all the latest treatments when the rest of us dont have that luxury? Is it fair that certain trainers seem to get races written specifically for them? Is it fair that some of us go to the yearling sale armed with budgets of thousands when others have millions?

The idea that there are those who are "forced" to use lasix and should be rewarded for not using it is completely flawed. Why not give horses who draw outside posts in two turn races less weight? Why not give rookie trainers 3 pounds like apprentice jockeys? Why not give horses ridden by less than 8% jockeys 2 pounds?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

How would I know why cheaters cheat? It isn't like we are dealing with a bunch of Einsteins now is it? Are you trying to tell me all these trainers know all the science of milkshakes and Lasix? Give me a break already.

I don't think you need to have a masters degree in psychology to figure out why cheaters cheat?

And this guy is trying to tell you that every horse getting lasix is in effect milkshaked. Which of course is ludicrous.

And lets not act naive like trainers are milkshaking their own horses or are producing the materials used for the pseudo-shakes...

Meh. I'm leaning towards a ban on Lasix. It's not like these trainers nowadays are deserving of having things their way. They don't run their horses enough to have a seat at the table any longer. They need to be bullied into either quitting or running their horses more.

This nonsense of banning lasix ruining the game is just that.

But realistically I'm more concerned with getting American bettors involved with Australian, Japanese, and Hong Kong racing. Or at the very least giving those of us who bet those races access to the local pools.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

It isnt a belief system. It is called experience in the field combined with a working knowledge of the substances plus frank, off the record discussions with those who would be considered experts.

http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Performa...36575&sr=8-1#_

Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome?

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The information you want has been known for years. Read any basic pharmacology text. Lasix is a very well-used and common drug in multiple species, for decades.

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH affects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What exactly will this accomplish? How is giving equal access to the same medication which is regulated and cheap unfair?

We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

I think Chuck's point is that we knew most of this most basic drug information 30 years ago. We've been using lasix in race horses for over 40 years.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

We'll just never see each other's point I guess. To me, you are saying since everyone can be drugged cheaply it is their problem if they don't use it. I'll never agree with that. If Lasix is so great, surely giving five pounds or a 50% edge in claiming prices to those not using isn't a big deal.

Drug the all Chuck, drug them all, that is the spirit.

As for Danzig's post about best for the horse, I've addressed this several times. If you want to believe this sport is about what is best for the horse, I have some prime coast land to sell you here in Oklahoma. I wish it was. I love horses. But we all know that isn't the case the majority of the time. Should I started listing more horses that were treated like disposable tissues?

You should stop falsely demonizing lasix for things it does not do. Pretending it's a hop is simply false. "What lasix does" isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of measured reality and science.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

You should stop falsely demonizing lasix for things it does not do. Pretending it's a hop is simply false. "What lasix does" isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of measured reality and science.

A vet said it, not me.

Drug em all, Riot, that is the ticket.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

A vet said it, not me.

Drug em all, Riot, that is the ticket.

Thousands of other vets say his opinion is a minority, and his views border on "crankdom".

Join those of us worrying about real drug problems in racing.

Stop chasing laser beams pointed to the wall by a few ignorant fools.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

What that book does very clearly is show that the bullshit that we are fed about what was going on in the pollyanna days prior to lasix use is not how it is actually was. While the testing has advanced it is very obvious that many of the same drugs that are being passed off as inventions of the modern day trainer were actually in use in the 70's and in some cases at much, much higher allowable levels.

Funny how everything was great back then but now those same things are the enemy of the horse.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Riot

Thousands of other vets say his opinion is a minority, and his views border on "crankdom".

Join those of us worrying about real drug problems in racing.

Stop chasing laser beams pointed to the wall by a few ignorant fools.

Thousands of other vets aren't being published in the New York Times. Funny, you say I should listen to vets, until they say something you don't like.

Drug them all. That has really helped the sport. The game couldn't be in better shape.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Riot

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

Interesting. 2 weeks ago you blasted me for suggesting that lasix affects the acid-base status of a horse. Now you're acting like you're the one bringing that information to the table. Pathetic.

Me, 2 weeks ago:

...lasix has other effects aside from reducing the severity of bleeding, namely causing a ~3% decrease in body weight (ie upwards to 30lbs) and changing the acid-base balance of the blood (ie the same principle behind "milkshaking" albeit at a less dramatic level).

Your response:

No, lasix does NOT change the acid-base balance of the blood. Anybody who knows how this loop diuretic works knows that. If that were true, every horse given lasix would have a TCO2 positive.

Ah...the intricate cross-thread backpedal. Yet another deadly tool in your sizeable weapons cache of cyber-terrorism.

Well done.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.