Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The part that's most puzzling to me is how they think this will help make new fans of horse racing or increase interest in the event.

I can understand a point system during the triple crown series. I can understand a point system during the season to crown divisional champions or a Horse of the Year.

From a gimmicky marketing angle -- that might be a good idea...and it might get the affect they're looking for.

i think it's just to generate more interest in the other races-wonder if nbc suggested some changes? they have to be happy that even tho IHA scratched, the belmont still had a ratings increase. anything that helps get more viewers, generates interest in all these other big races (i hate that many races are no called preps when they're good races in their own right) is a good thing.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Where is this 40 pt barrier coming from that's setting off hysteria about the number of horses who would not have made the field in prior years? I see no way that the minimum would be around 40 pts.

http://news.cincinnati.com/usatoday/...t%7CSports%7Cs

I believe the article states to feel "safe," one needs 40 points.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The latter, however, does a lot more for promoting the sport and growing the race and races surrounding it. NBC has something they can talk about now that makes sense to people outside of horse racing, or those on the fringes.

Is the point system really going to be that much easier to follow and explain that the Graded Stakes system?

Are people going to care about who makes the cut between horses like Liason and My Adonis?

I'll tell you what does generates a great deal of interest and new fans -- fillies who beat males in big races. Rags To Riches got a ton of attention for the sport. Rachel Alexandra got a ton of attention for the sport. Zenyatta got a massive amount of attention.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Is the point system really going to be that much easier to follow and explain that the Graded Stakes system?

Are people going to care about who makes the cut between horses like Liason and My Adonis?

I'll tell you what does generates a great deal of interest and new fans -- fillies who beat males. Rags To Riches got a ton of attention for the sport. Rachel Alexandra got a ton of attention for the sport. Zenyatta got a massive amount of attention.

that's what i'm not so sure about, the part where fillies don't get points unless run in open company. points earned in open count towards the oaks-but what if owners decide to play it safe, and just head to the oaks? they could end up in neither if they try open racing beforehand and have a less than stellar showing
genuine risk ran vs males once before the derby, in the wood memorial. if memory serves, she finished third. where would that put her? probably not making the cut. at any rate, some tweaking necessary.

[10 pnt move up]

Kinda like the idea of a minimum point entry, and if that excludes a few worthy horses, so be it. Anything to get these trainers to run their horses more often is a good idea to me.

[slotdirt]

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

[Danzig]

or they could always just make it an invitational-wonder what that would accomplish??

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

or are they just looking at historical value of the race? this years renewal didn't do much...i think war emblem is the only ky derby winner to ever come thru there.

[slotdirt]

I'd buy any argument if there weren't races like the freaking Smarty Jones included. Given that many other races aren't particularly historically significant (give me a break on the UAE Derby, for instance), there's really only one reason why they've excluded the Illinois Derby.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

So at first I was thinking the Illinois Derby thing was an oversight, but after more thought, it's basically a way for CDI to put Hawthorne out of business. And it's pretty shameful.

Obviously it was designed to hurt Hawthorne and to try and make the Illinois Derby irrelevant.

Sweetnorthernsaint was the post time favorite for the Kentucky Derby -- took more money from bettors than Barbaro.

He had 10 points and never would have got into the Kentucky Derby.

[jms62]

I think every mile and up graded race should count 2 and 3 year old not pick and choose. Scaling the points is fine since it basically is Win and you are in for the Grade 1 3 year old preps. One thing I would do is give the Breeders cup juvenile winner a free pass also. Usually that is the 2yo champ which should amount to something. The benefit is that he will take a lot of the early futures money.

[MaTH716]

Is this idea just an attempt to take focus off the more important lasix issue?

[slotdirt]

You can bet your sweet ass if the Illinois Derby was run at AP it would be a 100 point race.

[slotdirt]

I wonder if anybody at CDI gave the Breeders Cup a jingle before implementing a plan that could render the 2YO champion meaningless.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Is this idea just an attempt to take focus off the more important lasix issue?

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

[slotdirt]

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

[DaTruth]

I'm surprised that CDI didn't take the opportunity to give a boost to Fair Grounds by doubling the points for any horse that starts in the Louisiana Derby and either the Lecomte or Risen Star.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and i still don't buy that two year old races should count. would a derby win at three be a win and you're in at four for the bc?

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

yeah, i know...i would like to know what criteria they used to decide who to use. i do like that there are no races under a mile under consideration. but i can certainly understand supporting keeneland races over hawthorne, if you had to choose. and i have to say that i am glad they recognize that all graded stakes aren't created equal, and that a huge purse doesn't equal a huge race.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.