BC Mile - George Washington

[randallscott35]

I've never seen or bet on a horse that is even money or less in any Breeders Cup ever. It is a losing proposition. Too much competition, too many big fields. You have to go for it on BC days. Pu-ssy footing will get you nowhere. Can GW win, sure. Will he be on my ticket, hell no. Maybe a Pick 4, but never as a single.


And I still am seething over the amazing Hawk Wing, who need only finish in the super on BC day to give me a 55 grand super with Volp on top and Megs to boot (with Eve Att). Sold a bill a goods on that Euro and left off Mil Brew in favor of Hawk Wing. Tough to swallow....

Be wary of Euros on the dirt. Did Starcraft and Oratorio finish yet?

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I've never seen or bet on a horse that is even money or less in any Breeders Cup ever. It is a losing proposition. Too much competition, too many big fields. You have to go for it on BC days. Pu-ssy footing will get you nowhere. Can GW win, sure. Will he be on my ticket, hell no. Maybe a Pick 4, but never as a single.


And I still am seething over the amazing Hawk Wing, who need only finish in the super on BC day to give me a 55 grand super with Volp on top and Megs to boot (with Eve Att). Sold a bill a goods on that Euro and left off Mil Brew in favor of Hawk Wing. Tough to swallow....

Be wary of Euros on the dirt. Did Starcraft and Oratorio finish yet?

You'd think such "pure geniuses and superior trainers" would have figured out in over 20 years of BC races that to win on the dirt over here that your horse has to show some speed and break running from the gate.
I imagine they realize this but lack the SKILL to accomplish training a horse how to do this.
I guess the "broke trainers" that were just referred to have a little more horsemanship and skill, because they are able to get horses to do this.

Rock of Gibraltar loss the race at the draw. It is nearly impossible to win in top company at Arlington with the rail out from the outside. Nevertheless his race was outstanding.

I would think George Washington is strictly the one to beat and at Churchill they will race from the hedge. I am not frightened by singling a euro. BBB

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Yeah, well you can keep Spencer and that clown Murtaugh, thanks anyway.
Harry? Have you ever watched Murtaugh's ride on Whipper last year? Could you honestly try and explain to me what exactly you think was going through his head? Because quite frankly I don't think I will ever understand it.

Not only did I back Whipper, but I'd laid Artie Schiller for a fortune too, so, no, obviously I wasn't best pleased.

But the horse needed to be waited with, and in US turf races with virtually non-existent straights that can be very hard to do. But he would have got up had he not had to switch past Limehouse, and if he had we would all be lauding him for a brilliant ride. All in all it was a messy race, and one which lends weight to my view that its just not satisfactory running so-called championship turf races at the majority of US courses.

ANTONIUS PIUS steadied in tight on the first turn, raced well back for seven furlongs, steadied sharply while in traffic on the turn, moved between horses to get clear in upper stretch, lugged in while gaining in midstretch, closed strongly from outside nearing the sixteenth pole then checked behind the winner while lugging in again in the late stages.

Now thats a true masterpiece right there.
Thats his official chart call in the 2004 BC Mile.
There was more, but they only are given so much room on each horse.

[The Bid]

I dont think its the trainers in the United States that get the speed out of the horses, its the breeders. They are bred to be speed balls, all the trainer has to do is go out there and cut them lose. Of course American horses are going to be faster, they are bred that way, they are jacked up on equipoise, they are full of Deca, Lasix, Tren, Winstrol, god knows what else.

Orcale, I do not mean to say all trainers in the states are poor. There are some very very talented trainers. However, I would be willing to say that the horsemanship in general in Europe is much better. From yard help, on through the breeding.

Originally Posted by Hwjb

Not only did I back Whipper, but I'd laid Artie Schiller for a fortune too, so, no, obviously I wasn't best pleased.

But the horse needed to be waited with, and in US turf races with virtually non-existent straights that can be very hard to do. But he would have got up had he not had to switch past Limehouse, and if he had we would all be lauding him for a brilliant ride. All in all it was a messy race, and one which lends weight to my view that its just not satisfactory running so-called championship turf races at the majority of US courses.

No ****ing kidding he would have won without the switch. He wasnt forced to do that!!!! he CHOSE to do that!!!!!!!!!!!
He also quit riding the horse on the turn and took a hard hold as the horse lost ground. Then inexplcably, after allowing him to lose 3-4 lengths, he jerked his head off and switched lanes like a motorist on the LA freeway about 6 times. If I had been at that Cup, I'd still be doing time for assault of an incompetent dwarf.

[randallscott35]

Boy I hated Artie in the BC last year also. Tim and some others were believers and cashed because of it. Just on matchups against him I probably got hit for a grand. Thought he was ready to X, but he didn't, he did have the trip but he got it done.

Originally Posted by The Bid

I dont think its the trainers in the United States that get the speed out of the horses, its the breeders. They are bred to be speed balls, all the trainer has to do is go out there and cut them lose. Of course American horses are going to be faster, they are bred that way, they are jacked up on equipoise, they are full of Deca, Lasix, Tren, Winstrol, god knows what else.

Orcale, I do not mean to say all trainers in the states are poor. There are some very very talented trainers. However, I would be willing to say that the horsemanship in general in Europe is much better. From yard help, on through the breeding.

Thats nonsense Bid. Yard help? Well lets see, none of our good trainers train from "Yards". They take barns on the backside. And as far as breeding goes, thats nonsense as well. You guys basically get all the pricey Storm Cats, noone breeds more speed than him. Yet I seem to remember Hold That Tiger and several dozen more spotting everyone 10 lengths at the gate.
Blah.
Your trainers don't even have to worry about gate schooling. And that whole horsemanship thing is a joke as well. Look, the notion that because some guy dresses well and trains in a yard where every horses training chart says "gallop" every day (do they even make charts? I guess they don't need to, be a huge waste of paper and time to just write in Gallop 7 times each week next to every horse) means that he is a "horseman" is just rubbish.
Wanna know what "horsemanship" is? Horsemanship is trying to figure out how to get a horse to attend a blistering pace in a 20 horse field and keep on running for 10F.
Now, when one of those "great horsemen" figure out how to do that(like my trainer friend says, they can't, they don't know how to), I figure we will see one of them in the winners circle at the Kentucky Derby.
Lets just say I'm not holding my breath. They will never do it. I think its pretty obvious that the so called "horsemen" over there are one trick ponies who only kow how to train a horse one way to one thing.
Gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop, gallop. Sounds pretty complex huh?

[The Bid]

I dont want to argue with you about Euro trianing, horses, or breeding, you obviously have your opinion, and I have mine. At least we agree on allday being the best vet.


Jog, Gallop, Breeze, walk, whatever, its not complicated to be a horsetrainer. Whether you are in Europe or over here. I simply think the game is more pure in Europe. I like the fact the animals arent medicated as heavily, that is what I mean by pure in regards to the racing. As far as the horsemanship, Ive been here, and Ive been there, its really not even close. Not to say there arent any fantastic trainers and help over here, however the discrepancy between good and poor is greater over here. Even boarders on incomeptant

Originally Posted by The Bid

I dont want to argue with you about Euro trianing, horses, or breeding, you obviously have your opinion, and I have mine. At least we agree on allday being the best vet.


Jog, Gallop, Breeze, walk, whatever, its not complicated to be a horsetrainer. Whether you are in Europe or over here. I simply think the game is more pure in Europe. I like the fact the animals arent medicated as heavily, that is what I mean by pure in regards to the racing. As far as the horsemanship, Ive been here, and Ive been there, its really not even close.

If its not so compicated then why can't those "master horsemen" figure out how to get a horse to blaze early and stay on in a dirt route race?
Since this is not complicated, supposedly, then why can't they do it?

And Bid, lets call a spade a spade shall we?
If you are trying to delude us into thinking that horsemanship is superior because only superwealthy own horses over there and the trainers don't have the financial pressure that many of their American counterparts do to perform, thats nonsense as well.
Those "broke trainers" rise each day and have to return cash to non sheikh and non Aga Kahn owners as well as themselves.
The don't have the luxury of being able to just gallop around for months at a time aiming for three races a year.
Which makes the job they do all the more impressive.
You're right, I suppose at "yards" where the wealthy owner is paying the payroll and you can hire the finest of all all help, that is an advantage they have.
That doesn't make them better horsemen, it makes them trainers with wealthier owners. They don't have to pay a free lancer named Franky 15 bucks to breeze one as soon as hes done breezing one for another barn.
Despite this advantage to the Euros, they regularly get disgraced and thumped in dirt races, their horses never break from the gate, and they have even given up trying to win the Derby.
Give me on of those "broke" trainers from over here when I'm trying to win a Derby or Classic any day of the week.

[The Bid]

Probably the same reason we dont go over and win the Arc, we just arent bred to do it. Our horses are better suited to our racing, theres to theres. As a whole I said they had better animals, I believe that. I think they are closer to coming over here and shaking up our racing, than we are to going over there and laying one on them in the Arc.

[The Bid]

I think any horse aimed to an American Classic needs to be prepped and trained over here.

Originally Posted by The Bid

Probably the same reason we dont go over and win the Arc, we just arent bred to do it. Our horses are better suited to our racing, theres to theres. As a whole I said they had better animals, I believe that. I think they are closer to coming over here and shaking up our racing, than we are to going over there and laying one on them in the Arc.

Thats because we don't care about winning the Arc. There isn't any money in it!!!!! Turf sires can't be given away around here, you don't get 8 figure breedig deals on grass horses here, period. And why go to the Arc when you can wait 5 weeks and run for more purse MONEY at home in the BCTurf?
Don't you get it? We don't care about their races, they do nothing financially for anyone over here, there is no point to going there!!!

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think any horse aimed to an American Classic needs to be prepped and trained over here.

WHy is that?
Can't those "master horsemen" get it done over there?

Originally Posted by The Bid

Probably the same reason we dont go over and win the Arc, we just arent bred to do it. Our horses are better suited to our racing, theres to theres. As a whole I said they had better animals, I believe that. I think they are closer to coming over here and shaking up our racing, than we are to going over there and laying one on them in the Arc.

like i said two pages ago, we don't go there because of $$..we ship to dubai, to japan...cause they have the $$$$...we have plenty of turf racing with big purses here...hell, euros HAVE the arc and still come here to the bc...for the $$!

as for breeding....bid, who has been the TOP sire overseas for about 15 years???? sadlers wells. he's by northern dancer. danehill, second all these years to sadlers wells...by danzig, who's by northern dancer. many of the top horses overseas share the same blood as our horses here do. so much for the breeding aspect! storm cat, top sire, by storm bird by...northern dancer. euros come to kentucky every year to buy up turf horses. we obviously can breed them, they take them home and win with them!

[The Bid]

I think you could bring a Euro trainer over to prep a serious 2 year old for American classics.. Its just not feasible to ship the horse over just to run, while prepping out of the country.

Oracle, do you know of anyone interested in a nice 2 year old

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think you could bring a Euro trainer over to prep a serious 2 year old for American classics.. Its just not feasible to ship the horse over just to run, while prepping out of the country.

Oracle, do you know of anyone interested in a nice 2 year old

MESSAGE ME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
DO I HAVE ANYONE INTERESTED!!????? YES!!!

[The Bid]

Oracle I get it, this game isnt about winning money. If it were about winning money nobody would be in the game. Most people that own racehorses are interested in the prestige, not the money. They have money. Whether they run for 100 thousand, or half a million, that isnt going to change their life. You dont think a big time American owner would LOVE to have a horse go over and win the Arc, or any big euro race for that matter? Cmon, you know they would, its not about the money when you are talking about races like that, its the prestige. That being said we couldnt go win it