Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

What handicap horses has he turned into champions? I can only think of Left Bank. I think he follows Bluegrass Cat and Flower Alley to stud.

Oh please, Left bank doesn't count? He was indeed a champion.
Heres a question for all of you, how many ACTIVE trainers in the USA have trained a handicap champion?

[randallscott35]

Mike,
You really are missing the point here. I don't care how much money Holthus got for anything related to the deal. I also could care less that they made a bad decision in overpaying for him (which I think at this point is premature at best on your part).

It is the manner in which it went down. If the Bloodhorse article is correct it was handled in a way that simply wasn't classy. You act like class should go out the window simply because of the money involved. It's sad that the opposite is true, the people with the least often act the best....I don't have any problem with the horse being transferred. But you can't tell me it was the right way to do it, because it wasn't.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Mike,
You really are missing the point here. I don't care how much money Holthus got for anything related to the deal. I also could care less that they made a bad decision in overpaying for him (which I think at this point is premature at best on your part).

It is the manner in which it went down. If the Bloodhorse article is correct it was handled in a way that simply wasn't classy. You act like class should go out the window simply because of the money involved. It's sad that the opposite is true, the people with the least often act the best....I don't have any problem with the horse being transferred. But you can't tell me it was the right way to do it, because it wasn't.

I agree, but does it really matter if the boss takes you out to lunch and buys you a nice meal when he fires you or if he leaves a message on your phone?
The end result is the same. Its always lousy to be fired.

[Linny]

If you're a Holthus fan you resent him being taken from Bob. For others it a matter of Todd getting yet another made stakes winner. Having so many horses concentrated in one operation can be construed as negative. Todd already "owns" the older mare division on the east coast. The two G1 races for mares at SAR this summer saw a total of 10 horses go to post. Only ONE horse ran in both, though they were 5 weeks apart. Todd won both I think with horses that had been started with other trainers. He won 5 of the 6 2yo stakes at the Spa. Smaller outfits simply cannot compete so they ship to Delaware or jersey and get beat by his "B Team." It's frustrating.
When other trainers know that one guy has so many guns, they simply duck G1 races and ship out. That's why we can't get full fields in many NY G1's.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I agree, but does it really matter if the boss takes you out to lunch and buys you a nice meal when he fires you or if he leaves a message on your phone?
The end result is the same. Its always lousy to be fired.

It sure as hell matters to me. 10 minutes to say goodbye to a horse that was one of the best you ever trained? Again, what goes around comes around. The most successful people treat the lowest person in the company with the same respect as the highest.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

I would say first off, I don't feel like Holthus was "fired". For one, the new/current owners didn't "hire" him. The new owner simply moved his horse to another trainer. It happens all the time in this game.

I have had horses with a trainer moved them to another trainer and given other horses to the first trainer after that. So, I never fired the trainer I simply tried to see if they could improve with someone else. There was never hard feelings. Owners are allowed to have their horses trained by whomever they like.

If LR was mine and he continued to be rank in almost every race, I would have to question if he was getting the correct instruction.

There is no beef here. The owner is not required to give the trianer any warning at all. In fact, in some cases, it is almost preferable to do it with no notice. Some owners are paranoid about the attention their horses would recieve if they gave several days notice.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Are you sure those are the only things of which Pletcher is guilty?

As far as I know.

[pmayjr]

It's funny that Lawyer Ron's ownership group can make a quick trainer switch decision like that, but Sackatoga still won't dump Tagg in a last-ditch attempt to get F.C. right.

I think getting rid of Holtus was a classless move, but I do agree that maybe the owners hated how they couldn't get Lawyer Ron to settle. I'm assuming that's the reason why this is happeneing.

But Sackatoga should do the same with Tagg. They've tried everything else, TRY THE TRAINER SWITCH!

It's a shame what's happened to the Hines family. If my father passed away and left everything to a lawyer then I would certainly be pissed off.

It doesn't shock me that the horse was moved to a different trainer because Holthus sticks with McKee through thick and thin and the new connections are obviously big timers and want the horse under a bigtime trainer.

I was hoping he would've been sent to Zito since his record with 3 year old or older males is much more illustrious than Pletcher. Todd seems to have tough luck with the boys.

[Thoroughbred Fan]

pmayjr-

Why is it classless? If they went to guru and he said the moons alignment says go to Pletcher, would that matter? If they heard a voice from God, would that matter? If you have the cash and own the horses, you can manage them as flipantly as you desire. the trainer doesn't have to do business with you anymore if they don't like how you took the horses away. That is the trainer's right.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I agree with everything but 2. We don't know that there wasn't an agreement when they purchased the horse that they would retain Holthus as trainer throughout LR's career. If there was that agreement then they'd better have a pretty darn good reason for switching trainers.

judging by what holthus said, there was no agreement. he said he actually expected to lose the horse when the deal was first made by stonewall.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Mike,
You really are missing the point here. I don't care how much money Holthus got for anything related to the deal. I also could care less that they made a bad decision in overpaying for him (which I think at this point is premature at best on your part).

It is the manner in which it went down. If the Bloodhorse article is correct it was handled in a way that simply wasn't classy. You act like class should go out the window simply because of the money involved. It's sad that the opposite is true, the people with the least often act the best....I don't have any problem with the horse being transferred. But you can't tell me it was the right way to do it, because it wasn't.

you are absolutely right randy

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

It's a shame what's happened to the Hines family. If my father passed away and left everything to a lawyer then I would certainly be pissed off.

It doesn't shock me that the horse was moved to a different trainer because Holthus sticks with McKee through thick and thin and the new connections are obviously big timers and want the horse under a bigtime trainer.

I was hoping he would've been sent to Zito since his record with 3 year old or older males is much more illustrious than Pletcher. Todd seems to have tough luck with the boys.

Ridiculous statement, and false as well. Todds trained an older horse champ, Nick hasnt.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

judging by what holthus said, there was no agreement. he said he actually expected to lose the horse when the deal was first made by stonewall.

I'm sure Holthus is quite pleased with he money he made with the horse, and I would bet he doesnt get angry at all. Its standard for the trainer to receive a commission on a sale. Many cases its 5%. Trust me, if Holthus got taken care of on the sale, hes a very happy and prosperous guy.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

It's a shame what's happened to the Hines family. If my father passed away and left everything to a lawyer then I would certainly be pissed off.

It doesn't shock me that the horse was moved to a different trainer because Holthus sticks with McKee through thick and thin and the new connections are obviously big timers and want the horse under a bigtime trainer.

I was hoping he would've been sent to Zito since his record with 3 year old or older males is much more illustrious than Pletcher. Todd seems to have tough luck with the boys.

He didn't leave everything to the lawyer. The lawyer is the executor of his estate. The executor is legally obligated to act in a fiscally responsible way on behalf of the heirs. IMO, selling LR for far more than his worth was a great act on behalf of the heirs. They got a buttload of money into the estate by selling at the maximum of his value.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ridiculous statement, and false as well. Todds trained an older horse champ, Nick hasnt.

Speightstown?

Pletcher is the best trainer in the business but he does have a flaw and that is his poor record with grade 1 caliber male route horses. Until he wins the Derby or BCC he's going to have an asterick by his name for greatest trainer.

Originally Posted by Linny

He didn't leave everything to the lawyer. The lawyer is the executor of his estate. The executor is legally obligated to act in a fiscally responsible way on behalf of the heirs. IMO, selling LR for far more than his worth was a great act on behalf of the heirs. They got a buttload of money into the estate by selling at the maximum of his value.

Yes and he's acting like a real ******* by firing Mr. Hines' daughter and taking control of the family business in an estate battle that could take years to settle.

I heard LR was sold for $6 million.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

He didn't leave everything to the lawyer. The lawyer is the executor of his estate. The executor is legally obligated to act in a fiscally responsible way on behalf of the heirs. IMO, selling LR for far more than his worth was a great act on behalf of the heirs. They got a buttload of money into the estate by selling at the maximum of his value.

ask ANYONE in the business. you are always getting a good deal if someone offers you a boatload of $ for a horse and you take it. odds are so stacked against having a top horse, and then the odds that the horse remains sound, stays in top form...then there's making a stallion out of him later. take the $ and run, go buy more!! lawyer did right by the family in this case. and he makes a bit in the process. doesn't the executor get paid by the estate--10% i believe.
how often do people get offers and turn it down, only to see their dreams melt down...
there are a hell of a lot less seattle slews than everyone thinks! russell reineman played the game and won, the guys who owned she's a devil due--not so good.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

I heard LR was sold for $6 million.

if so, at this point they effed up...they'd have to book 100 mares at 15k a pop for the next four years to break even on the purchase price. lot of horses retire every year. he's going to be a harder sell than plenty of others at this point.
yeah, stonewall gambled. all farms do. some are better able to withstand a mistaken gamble than others...