Secretariat Vs. Spectacular Bid

[Danzig]

was it? at any rate, his first start back was the fastest at that distance for the meet....

[The Bid]

Lost in the fog was incredible. Any horse who can throw the kind of numbers he threw up with a cancer wrapped around their spine is mind boggling. If that horse had not gotten sick, god who knows. I think its a fair to say all his losses were tied into his disease. That horse was special.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Let's take them one-by-one ...

Affirmed tailed off at the end of his 3YO season ... he lost his last two races ... to be sure to a great 4YO and with a slipped saddle ... but losses nonetheless.

The 1954 colt crop was the greatest ever ... and I started following thoroughbred racing in 1957 because of them ... but all of those great horses had significant limitations as 3YOS ... Bold Ruler wouldn't rate and could be beaten by throwing a rabbit at him ... Gallant Man needed to close off a fast pace and barely managed to beat Bureaucracy in the Travers and Dedicate in the Nassau County when the pace was slow. Both Bold Ruler and Gallant Man were defeated at scale weight by the older Dedicate in the Woodward. And Round Table didn't come close to winning his two most important races as a 3YO ... the Kentucky Derby and the Trenton Handicap.

War Admiral was sensational as a 3YO ... but he didn't set track records or win by the open lengths that Bernardini has.

Count Fleet was retired after the Belmont Stakes and never had to face a really good horse. He beat up regularly on Blue Swords ... and there was virtually nothing behind that one. This was during the depths of WWII ... when it looked like Germany and Japan were invincible ... and most everyone ... including owners, trainers, and jockeys ... were putting their time into the war effort ... not horse racing.

Look at the actual records ... and you'll agree that IF Bernardini puts in another exceptional race in the BC Classic ... his 3YO record will be as good as any but the very, very best.

In the words of Mugatu in Zoolander, "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills." Give me a 4 yr old season or give me death.

We should start a petition to send to the oil boys over there to keep him in training. How many signers could we get?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

was it? at any rate, his first start back was the fastest at that distance for the meet....

Yeah, its semantics, he would've run the fastest 6 or 8 if they let him. Ha ha.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

At least now you seem to have it together a bit.

Could it be the other way around?

Originally Posted by randallscott35

B/c I believe if they raced at 4 (Sec completely sound, yes) that Bid would've beat him 3 out of 5 times or better. Gut feeling

As I've posted many times ... coulda/shoulda/woulda doesn't count ... we can only go by actual races.

All we can say for sure ... is that in the two common years that they raced ... 2YO and 3YO ... Secretariat was better ... AND ... Spectacular Bid as a 4YO had one of the best campaigns ... possibly the best ... that any American race horse has ever had.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Could it be the other way around?

Nope. We should meet up someday. Will be at AQ in November. Would guess you wouldn't be far from that.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

never know...secretariat may have pulled a flower alley at four.

Or he may have gotten even better ...

... I'll find out when I get to heaven ... don't know what'll happen with you.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Let's take them one-by-one ...

Affirmed tailed off at the end of his 3YO season ... he lost his last two races ... to be sure to a great 4YO and with a slipped saddle ... but losses nonetheless.

The 1954 colt crop was the greatest ever ... and I started following thoroughbred racing in 1957 because of them ... but all of those great horses had significant limitations as 3YOS ... Bold Ruler wouldn't rate and could be beaten by throwing a rabbit at him ... Gallant Man needed to close off a fast pace and barely managed to beat Bureaucracy in the Travers and Dedicate in the Nassau County when the pace was slow. Both Bold Ruler and Gallant Man were defeated at scale weight by the older Dedicate in the Woodward. And Round Table didn't come close to winning his two most important races as a 3YO ... the Kentucky Derby and the Trenton Handicap.

War Admiral was sensational as a 3YO ... but he didn't set track records or win by the open lengths that Bernardini has.

Count Fleet was retired after the Belmont Stakes and never had to face a really good horse. He beat up regularly on Blue Swords ... and there was virtually nothing behind that one. This was during the depths of WWII ... when it looked like Germany and Japan were invincible ... and most everyone ... including owners, trainers, and jockeys ... were putting their time into the war effort ... not horse racing.

Look at the actual records ... and you'll agree that IF Bernardini puts in another exceptional race in the BC Classic ... his 3YO record will be as good as any but the very, very best.

---war admiral broke the belmont stakes record set 17 years prior by his old man, and equaled the american record for that distance--and this after grabbing a quarter leaving the gate. he was a perfect 8 for 8 that year.

then there's damascus, winner of the race of the century, as a three year old, over buckpasser and dr fager. all three are inside the top 20 racehorses of the 20th century. he also won the travers by 22 lengths, tying the track record with buckpasser!
count fleet may not have had competition, so he raced record books and the clock. his 25 length victory in the belmont was surpassed only by secretariats, and he set a stakes record in that race to boot.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Or he may have gotten even better ...

... I'll find out when I get to heaven ... don't know what'll happen with you.

i haven't a clue...but glad you do.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

just had this thought after i hit the 'send' button....a lot of people, myself included, thought lost in the fog would have his coming of age party around this time last year.

Ten days before the 2005 BC Sprint ... I publicly assured everyone that Lost In The Fog would finish off the board.

If you had seen and paid attention to that post ... you would have called the caterer ... and cancelled the party.

RIP Lost In The Fog ... you did your best every time they put you in a starting gate ... and that's all we can ask for.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Ten days before the 2005 BC Sprint ... I publicly assured everyone that Lost In The Fog would finish off the board.

If you had seen and paid attention to that post ... you would have called the caterer ... and cancelled the party.

RIP Lost In The Fog ... you did your best every time they put you in a starting gate ... and that's all we can ask for.

So did a lot of people on this board. In fact, the press about LITF wasn't that dissimilar to that of Bernie? Hmmm.....

Originally Posted by Danzig188

---war admiral broke the belmont stakes record set 17 years prior by his old man, and equaled the american record for that distance--and this after grabbing a quarter leaving the gate. he was a perfect 8 for 8 that year.

then there's damascus, winner of the race of the century, as a three year old, over buckpasser and dr fager. all three are inside the top 20 racehorses of the 20th century. he also won the travers by 22 lengths, tying the track record with buckpasser!
count fleet may not have had competition, so he raced record books and the clock. his 25 length victory in the belmont was surpassed only by secretariats, and he set a stakes record in that race to boot.

What marvelous race horses they all were ... thank God that Bernardini may be ending the 27-year drought that we've had since the last great one ... Spectacular Bid ... like those.

Originally Posted by randallscott35

So did a lot of people on this board. In fact, the press about LITF wasn't that dissimilar to that of Bernie? Hmmm.....

On the "other" board ... the goo-goos had Lost In The Fog being greater than Hindoo, Domino, Roseben, Bold Ruler, Dr. Fager, and Ghostzapper combined.

I'm glad the people here were more sensible ... I wish I had known then what I know now about thoroughbred racing forums.

[repent]

I have no freaking clue which one was better b/c they ran like 7 years apart and never faced each other.
I would tend to think SBid was a better 1 turn horse, but its just speculation.

the debate, and the b/c of my age its the only one I find interesting, is who is the best dirt horse since Spectacular Bid.
the common and probably safest answer would be Cigar.
Its a valid response, but I would disagree.

Mineshaft or Ghostzapper would get my vote.

i have trouble placing Leading the Parade in a histortical perspective b/c I dont think his career is over yet.

Repent

[King Glorious]

What I absolutely HATE is when people say that a horse is "not in the same class as so and so YET". That is the dumbest statement that can be made. If u think that if Bernardini wins the Classic the same way as he's been winning his other starts will put him into the all-time great conversation, wouldn't that mean that today, he's already there? What I mean is that the talent is already there. The only thing that he doesn't have yet are enough accomplishments. Some of u that base your arguments on what a horse accomplishes, yeah, I can understand your holding off on putting Bernardini into the conversation. But if he does end up doing the things u need to see him do in order to be moved up on your lists, it has to mean that the talent was there all along. If that's the case, what is so wrong with putting him up there now? It's like with Michael Jordan. It didn't take him winning six titles for me to realize that he was the greatest player I'd ever seen. I knew that after watching him play four years. Ability doesn't always have to be matched by accomplishments for me.

[MLC]

I believe Shoemaker said that Spectacular Bid was the best he had ever ridden. Anyway, I agree with the posters who agree that it's very difficult, if not downright impossible to "prove" that 1 horse is better than another, unless they face the same horses. Even then, there are still fans who will argue for their favorite (like some Alydar fans might try to explain or excuse each of his loses to Affirmed). I think that we are lucky to see such great horses run. Whether Bernardini is going to be included in that select category depends on his connections. He seems to be special, but I would withhold annointing him until he wins against larger fields, meets and defeats opponents who challenge him, and sets records doing so.
By the way, my personal favorite is Secretariat.

Originally Posted by Cardus

Red Smith wrote that Spectacular Bid's four-year-old season was the best since Tom Fool's (1957). And there were a lot of outstanding four-year-old seasons between the two.

Tom Fool's sensational 4YO campaign occurred in 1953 ... but nevertheless ...

... I agree with that assessment.

The only other comparable 4YO campaigns were Bold Ruler in 1958 and Dr. Fager in 1968.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

What I absolutely HATE is when people say that a horse is "not in the same class as so and so YET". That is the dumbest statement that can be made. If u think that if Bernardini wins the Classic the same way as he's been winning his other starts will put him into the all-time great conversation, wouldn't that mean that today, he's already there? What I mean is that the talent is already there. The only thing that he doesn't have yet are enough accomplishments. Some of u that base your arguments on what a horse accomplishes, yeah, I can understand your holding off on putting Bernardini into the conversation. But if he does end up doing the things u need to see him do in order to be moved up on your lists, it has to mean that the talent was there all along. If that's the case, what is so wrong with putting him up there now? It's like with Michael Jordan. It didn't take him winning six titles for me to realize that he was the greatest player I'd ever seen. I knew that after watching him play four years. Ability doesn't always have to be matched by accomplishments for me.

a lot of horses have ability. doesn't mean they show it, or have a chance to. so how can they be great? colin and personal ensign (for instance) retired undefeated and get much respect for that feat. danzig retired undefeated. do you see much press for that? no, since he only ran three times. yes, all wins, but he only ran a few times--so it doesn't 'count'.
as for bernardini and withholding judgement. bernardini could conceivably stink up the track at churchill. not sure anyone really thinks that could happen, but it could happen. so you don't really know what this horse will be, as he's still showing us. when he's done, then you know. i mean, that would be like saying you know the ending of a movie, ,know that it's a classic, when you've only seen half or two thirds of it. you MIGHT know, but it would be speculation. so you watch to the end. sometimes at the end you say, hey that sucked. or sometimes the audience applauds! ah, you say, as you walk out with your shoes making sucking noises because some little brat spilled his coke and you walked thru it, i KNEW that was gonna happen!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MLC

I believe Shoemaker said that Spectacular Bid was the best he had ever ridden. Anyway, I agree with the posters who agree that it's very difficult, if not downright impossible to "prove" that 1 horse is better than another, unless they face the same horses. Even then, there are still fans who will argue for their favorite (like some Alydar fans might try to explain or excuse each of his loses to Affirmed). I think that we are lucky to see such great horses run. Whether Bernardini is going to be included in that select category depends on his connections. He seems to be special, but I would withhold annointing him until he wins against larger fields, meets and defeats opponents who challenge him, and sets records doing so.
By the way, my personal favorite is Secretariat.

even when two meet you won't get agreement. poll the group here, and you'll see....just ask 'who's better--sunday silence or easy goer?'..watch the fur fly.