23% sales tax; no fed. income tax

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by pgardn

why would people work hard if not to acquire wealth?

Why would people want to lay around doing nothing? I dont work hard to make money. I work hard because I like working hard. I dont like sitting around doing nothing. I will work hard at anything, just as long as I dont have to sit around and be lazy. I have to be doing something more than what others might consider total hedonism (sipping a margarita on the beach watching pretty girls). I got to get up and get in the surf and start splashing around, build a sand castle something... how can people just sit still and do nothing.

So I personally dont get the lazy thing. That people work to make money. Lots of retired people work very hard and dont make a dime.

Pgardn: It's quite simple really....this is the Age of Entitlement! Everything is owed to someone and and its their right to have thus and such. The fact of the matter is that it's incumbent on the society,not the govt, to take care of those less fortunate. Some of this burden has been borne by the Red Cross,Salvation Army,Goodwill,and various charitable organizations and food banks. If we as a society dont "burn out" our teachers and leaders, we could make a sizeable dent in the conditions of many folks....and then there's family!

[skippy3481]

P,
You have a strong work ethic, as a great deal of people here do, but, many people do not. If you want witness go into a mcdonalds in the inner city, they are being paid and don't care. Apathy in the workplace is going to happen. If you take out the monetary element from working, most of them would slow to a stop. Some people would rather do as little as possible and just enough to get paid. my parents always taught me, it doesn't matter what you do, but whatever it is, give everything.

[Cannon Shell]

Interestingly enough Sommer makes his argument that money does not equal personal value but wants to redistribute the money anyway. This is kind of a silly argument isn't it?
The sad truth is that equality does not, has not, nor will ever exist anywhere. We are only familiar with our own society but racism, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, poverty, starvation, etc are a worldwide issue and always have been and always will. Human nature dictates. Humans are weak and humans are strong. Humans are smart and humans are dumb. Humans are not made equally. The problems is not that the rich are prospering, it is that the poor are failing. Lashing out at one group wont help another. It is a simplistic argument that is so foolish I cant believe that someone with a 150 IQ would attempt to make it. Taxing individuals to extreme means demeans accomplishment and achievement. And for those who are born rich, why discriminate against them without reason? Because of where they were born? How is that any different than discriminating against a persons skin color? To discriminate against any person for an event totally out of their control is crazy.
Also I would think that a person with a 150 IQ would realize the folly of giving our government billions of dollars and expecting any REAL help for the poor.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Interestingly enough Sommer makes his argument that money does not equal personal value but wants to redistribute the money anyway. This is kind of a silly argument isn't it?
The sad truth is that equality does not, has not, nor will ever exist anywhere. We are only familiar with our own society but racism, discrimination, ethnic cleansing, poverty, starvation, etc are a worldwide issue and always have been and always will. Human nature dictates. Humans are weak and humans are strong. Humans are smart and humans are dumb. Humans are not made equally. The problems is not that the rich are prospering, it is that the poor are failing. Lashing out at one group wont help another. It is a simplistic argument that is so foolish I cant believe that someone with a 150 IQ would attempt to make it. Taxing individuals to extreme means demeans accomplishment and achievement. And for those who are born rich, why discriminate against them without reason? Because of where they were born? How is that any different than discriminating against a persons skin color? To discriminate against any person for an event totally out of their control is crazy.
Also I would think that a person with a 150 IQ would realize the folly of giving our government billions of dollars and expecting any REAL help for the poor.

This is of course why I never have and never will post my score on the net...people can't help themselves but to attempt to belittle someone with whom they disagree! IQ scores are a very very subjective measure of intelligence and I only responded to another poster...you raised some valid questions, too bad you felt the need to keep harping on some man-made measure of what we call intellect. Since it seems somehow important to you, please note that I didn't designate a specific number but merely indicated a score over the number previously mentioned....
Now, regarding your first point....there is no discrepancy in me stating that wealth is not the true measure of a life while stating that everyone should experience a measure of economic equality...it isn't silly to desire a world free of unnecessary suffering and poverty, and having a world where all folks share the resources in no way values or devalues them on that basis...that is beyond silly, it's a stupid and deliberate misrepresentation.
Point #2...I totally reject the defeatest attitute that because things are a certain way they will always be that way! The old "word of Christ" BS that the poor will always be with us is taken out of context (as DTS and others have pointed out). If I am correct in my belief that all men (and women) are connected, that they are all brothers (and sisters), then your view is merely perception...and perceptions do change over time!
Point #3...discriminating against the rich? Lets see...we can have a world where everyone shares and lives and works together for the good of all or we can have a world where a lucky few have everything while the vast majority suffer...now again, who is discriminating against who???

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

This is of course why I never have and never will post my score on the net...people can't help themselves but to attempt to belittle someone with whom they disagree! IQ scores are a very very subjective measure of intelligence and I only responded to another poster...you raised some valid questions, too bad you felt the need to keep harping on some man-made measure of what we call intellect. Since it seems somehow important to you, please note that I didn't designate a specific number but merely indicated a score over the number previously mentioned....
Now, regarding your first point....there is no discrepancy in me stating that wealth is not the true measure of a life while stating that everyone should experience a measure of economic equality...it isn't silly to desire a world free of unnecessary suffering and poverty, and having a world where all folks share the resources in no way values or devalues them on that basis...that is beyond silly, it's a stupid and deliberate misrepresentation.
Point #2...I totally reject the defeatest attitute that because things are a certain way they will always be that way! The old "word of Christ" BS that the poor will always be with us is taken out of context (as DTS and others have pointed out). If I am correct in my belief that all men (and women) are connected, that they are all brothers (and sisters), then your view is merely perception...and perceptions do change over time!
Point #3...discriminating against the rich? Lets see...we can have a world where everyone shares and lives and works together for the good of all or we can have a world where a lucky few have everything while the vast majority suffer...now again, who is discriminating against who???

You posted your IQ score, you opened the door , not me.
I dont see where taking from the rich will relieve the suffering of the oppressed. The reasons behind the "bad things in the world" are not all related to money. You seem to suffer from reverse discrimination or perhaps just pure and simple jealousy. You want to create by tearing down instead of building up. My "defeatest attitude" stems from the realization that all men are NOT equal despite your determiniation that we are all 'connected'. I am sure that my skills and intellegence levels in certain matters are far greater than yours as yours in certain matters are greater than mine. That does not make us equals despite any connection that we may have. Just as the strong survive in the wild, natural selection dictates that some will overcome while some will fail. The strong should not have to pay a penalty for being strong.

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid. If we all lived in perfect harmony and cured all diseases the world would run out of food and fresh water in 6 months. Ambition is not a crime, nor is being wealthy and spending your money in the manner that you please. The rich cant inject ambition into the poor. Many rich people started out life as poor as dirt and worked and worked and got a lucky break or two and found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

That's a sort of game. set. match. thing. There is really no combatting this example. If you leveled the playing field, it would just become unequal immediately again. Well said.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

I struggle with this idea -- as I would like for our government to tax the wildly wealthy more (not 90% though), but then again the government may not be the best source of success in combatting poverty given their incredible track record thus far. So no matter how you approach it, you end up at the same problem. We need more money and more resources to combat poverty and the wild inequality we have -- but what do we do? We take the money from the rich and let the government waste it on ineffective ways to motivate the poor and poverty stricken? It's a catch-22, because you lose both ways. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying we haven't figured out how to do it yet. How do we really help those stuck in poverty and unable to get out while at the same time not just handing money over to those in poverty due to their laziness and lack of motivation? You can't have a motivation test on paper to determine who gets the actual help and who gets a hearty "too bad for you."

And it's far easier when i'm not wildly rich, because I'm pretty sure that if I somehow got there, I'd be pissy about people wanting more of my money too because I would say I had earned it fair and square.....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

That's a sort of game. set. match. thing. There is really no combatting this example. If you leveled the playing field, it would just become unequal immediately again. Well said.



I struggle with this idea -- as I would like for our government to tax the wildly wealthy more (not 90% though), but then again the government may not be the best source of success in combatting poverty given their incredible track record thus far. So no matter how you approach it, you end up at the same problem. We need more money and more resources to combat poverty and the wild inequality we have -- but what do we do? We take the money from the rich and let the government waste it on ineffective ways to motivate the poor and poverty stricken? It's a catch-22, because you lose both ways. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying we haven't figured out how to do it yet. How do we really help those stuck in poverty and unable to get out while at the same time not just handing money over to those in poverty due to their laziness and lack of motivation? You can't have a motivation test on paper to determine who gets the actual help and who gets a hearty "too bad for you."

And it's far easier when i'm not wildly rich, because I'm pretty sure that if I somehow got there, I'd be pissy about people wanting more of my money too because I would say I had earned it fair and square.....

Unlss you specify specific groups or demographics it is impossible to come up with any blanket solution or plan to deal with the poor and suffering. Certainly taxing the rich to death will not solve anything except satisfy those who envy the wealthy. I always thought it strange that the first group that it attacked when dealing with the poor is the rich. I'm sure that I personally am not considered rich by most on this board, however if I was to relocate to a third world country with the same income level I would be considered mega wealthy. It is all relative.
Most people who attack the wealthy are simply envious. It is easy to take the supposed high groind when you dont have anything to lose.
My standard of living allows me to be able to live in a great house in an upscale neighborhood. I drive a luxury SUV. I own racehorses. Should I sell these things, move into public housing and send the govt my money? Why take from me for others that have no connection to me except for the fact that we are "brothers" according to Sommerfrost? It makes no sense. What I'm not who we are talking about? Bill Gates then? Should he not deserve to do with his money what he pleases? His CREATIONS have advanced the world far more than the 30 billion that he is worth would.
We are not robots. We are people. We love. We hate. We are imperfect being living in an imperfect world. Accept the rich as you do the poor. Dont disciminate against sucessful people because they are sucessful. Dont try to set another persons morality level. If I said that I hate the poor because they are worthless people who drag down society, what would you think of me? So why is ok to say the same thing of the rich?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You posted your IQ score, you opened the door , not me.
I dont see where taking from the rich will relieve the suffering of the oppressed. The reasons behind the "bad things in the world" are not all related to money. You seem to suffer from reverse discrimination or perhaps just pure and simple jealousy. You want to create by tearing down instead of building up. My "defeatest attitude" stems from the realization that all men are NOT equal despite your determiniation that we are all 'connected'. I am sure that my skills and intellegence levels in certain matters are far greater than yours as yours in certain matters are greater than mine. That does not make us equals despite any connection that we may have. Just as the strong survive in the wild, natural selection dictates that some will overcome while some will fail. The strong should not have to pay a penalty for being strong.

Think of the world if we gave all people equal opportunity at the moment of our birth. Do you not think that some would lead while others would follow? Would not some become great successes while others become common criminals? You seem to equate wealth with a poor sense of morality. As though the rich are somehow taking advantage of the poor by being rich?

Perfect world models are silly unless you are stoned or tripping on acid. If we all lived in perfect harmony and cured all diseases the world would run out of food and fresh water in 6 months. Ambition is not a crime, nor is being wealthy and spending your money in the manner that you please. The rich cant inject ambition into the poor. Many rich people started out life as poor as dirt and worked and worked and got a lucky break or two and found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If not for that dream, whats to motivate the poor? Why work hard to achieve when Sommerfrost is going to steal from the rich so that we have "equality"?

Well CS, I don't know about your concept of "opening the door"....I really don't care about it, but you sure seem fixated on it. You equate success with wealth...I don't, and that is something I doubt we will reach common ground on! Jealous of the wealthy...why? Anyway, I don't care about the accumulation of wealth but I do care when folks' greed harms others. Is a person evil because they are rich? Of course not, nor are they "inferior" because they are poor. Everyone has talents, and everyone has weaknesses...how does that reflect on their intrinsic "value"?? Again, you are using a measure of a person's worth that I totally reject...so there is no real chance that we will agree here! All I'm saying is that you can't measure my philosophy using your yardstick...do you understand that? Let me try one last time here...I see all of creation as being connected, all people as being connected, we are all part of that which we call mankind and we are all part of the universes which in turn are part of the creator, that makes us all equal...it can be no other way! Now, you may reject this philosophy, you may even make fun of it, that's your decision...but it's pointless for us to argue whether my view is true or not...it's true to me! I believe that the world's resources should be shared equally by everyone and that no one has a "right" to take more than their share at the expense of others!

[skippy3481]

CS, could not have said it any better thank you.

[timmgirvan]

I'm still not grasping your point about some peoples' greed hurting others! Are you talking about the US as a capitalistic society, or do you target the oil and energy companies! Being wealthy is not a crime,nor is it wrong! In this society, the idea is to carry your own weight...most do,some don't. We have flawed systems in place for healthcare and jobless and homeless,but it's wrong to blame the rich for societys' ills....most likely it's the people who are respnsible for societys' ills.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I'm still not grasping your point about some peoples' greed hurting others! Are you talking about the US as a capitalistic society, or do you target the oil and energy companies! Being wealthy is not a crime,nor is it wrong! In this society, the idea is to carry your own weight...most do,some don't. We have flawed systems in place for healthcare and jobless and homeless,but it's wrong to blame the rich for societys' ills....most likely it's the people who are respnsible for societys' ills.

Timm,
I used Bill Gates as an example simply because, last I heard, he was the richest person in the world, I prefaced my remarks by saying that as far as I know, he's a decent guy. Some folks here tend to take things far too personally...I don't care if a person has a "luxury SUV" or that he feels the need to inform us of said ownership, the problem isn't people, it's society's mores and beliefs...we are rooted as a society in the belief that the purpose of life, as George Carlin would say, is getting more and more stuff. Do I blame "rich folks"? No, I blame the value system and set of beliefs that creates rich folks. I believe in a world where the purpose of hard work is helping others and sharing the benefits...utopian? Of course, that's how all belief systems are structured...around goals, dreams and views of what constitutes "perfection". Christians believe in a "heaven" occupied by god and angels, I believe that the creator is here...within each of us...or more accurately, that we are part of that creator as are all the universes. The problem with wealth and power is that it creates a desire for more of the same...and people suffer as a result....today, there are two worlds, one occupied by the rich and powerful and one occupied by the rest of us. Those of us in the so-called middle class don't suffer so terribly due to this but alas, the majority of the world does!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Timm,
I used Bill Gates as an example simply because, last I heard, he was the richest person in the world, I prefaced my remarks by saying that as far as I know, he's a decent guy. Some folks here tend to take things far too personally...I don't care if a person has a "luxury SUV" or that he feels the need to inform us of said ownership, the problem isn't people, it's society's mores and beliefs...we are rooted as a society in the belief that the purpose of life, as George Carlin would say, is getting more and more stuff. Do I blame "rich folks"? No, I blame the value system and set of beliefs that creates rich folks. I believe in a world where the purpose of hard work is helping others and sharing the benefits...utopian? Of course, that's how all belief systems are structured...around goals, dreams and views of what constitutes "perfection". Christians believe in a "heaven" occupied by god and angels, I believe that the creator is here...within each of us...or more accurately, that we are part of that creator as are all the universes. The problem with wealth and power is that it creates a desire for more of the same...and people suffer as a result....today, there are two worlds, one occupied by the rich and powerful and one occupied by the rest of us. Those of us in the so-called middle class don't suffer so terribly due to this but alas, the majority of the world does!

Well Somer: You got the 1st half right....the problem is that we probably will never see the end of poverty...we as humans can only do what we can do for those we CAN help! The debate will continue as to how to deal with taxes.

[lg1965]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

No one is forcing shareholders to remain as such. If you don't like how a company is being run...

dude, i think i could sit and have a beer with you. i don't say that about too many people.

[lg1965]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

What am I going to do? Am I going to stop investing in the stock market just because CEOs are overpaid? Where else am I going to put my money? There aren't really too many other options. I'm pretty much forced to accept it whether I like it or not.

why don't you take your money and invest it in a company that you can own and operate, thereby contributing to the local economy, instead of handing it over to people that know what they are doing, so that you don't have to do a single thing and still make money, and have the right to complain how much money those people are making that you are just jumping on for a free ride?

[lg1965]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

OK, I've listened to enough ranting...let me repeat myself...NOBODY NEEDS ALL THAT MONEY! It amuses me that the same old greed-filled arguments are pulled out to defend folks right to be rich! Let me get my hankie so I can cry over the fate of someone forced to live on a measly few million dollars...wawawa! Explain to me why you NEED a two million dollar house, or a private jet?? Explain all these NEEDS to folks living on the streets and eating out of garbage cans...oh yeah, that's right...they're just lazy and deserve to suffer..right?? Just like those kids who starve to death in the Third World or die from diseases for which we have had cures for years! Yes, I guess you are right...my way of thinking is UnAmerican...afterall, like the lady in the song, you can buy the stairway to heaven! What right do I have to tell someone that they have enough money? What right does anyone have who sees injustice to speak?? I'm the bad guy? All I want is to end poverty and human suffering...excuse me if some folks have to slum it in a cheaper home or fly on a commercial airliner, or join one less country club! What arrogance!! You guys actually believe that some folks DESERVE unlimited wealth and power while others DESERVE pain and suffering?? Please, tell these people how they must suffer so that you can buy another Rolls! Oh, and the only thing wrong with communism is communists...human nature unfortunately trumps the best intentions.

you're the one that believes in karma. pain and suffering is part of the package.

[lg1965]

anyway, getting back to a national sales tax........i live in the state of washington....no state income tax...........state gets it's income from consumer taxes, basically sales taxes. lots of exemptions. no tax on most food items ( candy is taxed, so is soda, some other stuff, you know, things considered non-essential) essentials used to be taxed, but when prices started going up in the late '70s, exemptions started popping up. now there are quite a few. washington is hardly flush with money, but we're not to the point of instituting a state income tax either. not even close. property values have gone up so much that real estate taxes have filled a huge void. basically, the renter that doesn't buy tons of frivolous stuff doesn't get heavily taxed in this state.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by ultracapper

you're the one that believes in karma. pain and suffering is part of the package.

That's an eloquent response...I guess using that logic you could defend slavery and genocide.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ultracapper

why don't you take your money and invest it in a company that you can own and operate, thereby contributing to the local economy, instead of handing it over to people that know what they are doing, so that you don't have to do a single thing and still make money, and have the right to complain how much money those people are making that you are just jumping on for a free ride?

One could say the same thing about a lot of the hereditary wealthy, who are living the ultimate free ride. A person I know who works for many of them refers to them as the "Lucky Sperm Club."

[GenuineRisk]

This is a kick-ass thread, guys; I'd nominate it for one of the best OT threads ever (how is that possible when I barely contributed to it? Tee hee).

But I want to clarify something about the progressive income tax that a lot of people seem to be getting wrong. People are all taxed equally- what is taxed unequally is the money. Bill Gates doesn't pay any more tax on the first $20,000 of his income than does the McDonalds worker down the street. As one's income goes up, the percentage of the additional income subject to taxation is what increases.

So, to use Rupert's example of a man selling a machine for $100 million-- under a progressive tax system that would cap out at 95% tax after, say, $90 million, only the last $10 million would be subject to a 95% tax rate. Not the full $100 million.

(And in our system, of course, people deduct the cost of creating something as business expenses, further reducing the amount of money eligible for taxation. I doubt that $100 million dollar machine was created for $4.99)

Just wanted to clear that up- it's an easy misconception to have about progressive tax systems.

By the way, Timm, I have several friends who are getting by on $25,000 or less. Not easily, and God help them if they get sick, as they can't afford health care in our messed-up health system, but they're struggling by.

[Danzig]

altho it would be a grand scheme if everyone could get along with everyone, help everyone, etc--the reality is that it wouldn't work, as a goodly portion of the humans on this world would be perfectly content to continue to sit on their ass while sharing equally the fruits of others labors. it happens now, it would continue to happen. there are those who struggle mightily, i know my husband and i did for years....some never get out of poverty, some do. the answer isn't to take from those that have and give to those that don't. the answer would be to help those that don't have to achieve--education, opoortunities, job training etc. of course you'll still have those too lazy to try--i have a hard time feeling any sympathy at all for them--and we all can name some like that. a brother in law perhaps, a sister who milks granny while crying about her destitution while she sits home all day doing nothing.

as for health care, it's always astonishing to me when i give a new hire their paperwork to get healthcare, and they don't bother. don't get sick, so why would i want healthcare? they say...and jr is on arkids, so why should i pay for coverage? then there's, her stepdad wants to adopt her, but then we'd have to pay for her coverage, as right now the state covers her since i don't have to claim his income. yeah, cause it's my responsibility to pay for mine, my husband, my kids coverage--and her kids as well. sure, i see the reasoning.
oh, then there's the guy who worked with my husband on 'disability'--he can't work with this bad back...but he sure can hunt, fish, etc....