Saddam Hung

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

that's like saying since i don't like it when my husband farts in bed i should divorce him and move in with a loser.

Ok.. if you think that your husband farting is a similar example fighting the war on terror, than that was a mighty good analogy!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

You make some valid points about the core of out country, but I think that people should have some patriotism. I mean, terrorists have claimed war against the US, and all some people do over here while they live comfortably and without the fear of being bombed at the super-market, is bash the government and military actions.

While, using hindsight, invading Iraq has been a big problem for our country and was probably not the right move to do (especially that WMD crap), I will always back my government and military for trying to protect us US citizens. And I honestly believe that they (as in the govnt) made the decision to invade Iraq to protect us. I really dont give all the conspiricy theorist's a minute of my time.

There has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11, and that is not from lack of trying by the terrorists. It is because of the actions of our government and military.

I really feel upset when people bash our military and it's leaders when they are trying to end terrorism, maybe not in the correct way, but the terrorists are so very dangerous action needed to be taken and it was.

Believe me, I dont like Bush... being a gay woman who works in the gambling industry, I think Bush has a very closed minded views on social issues and it upsets me. But I am all for being and feeling safe where I live, even if I cant get married!

But hey, this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to one, I just feel uneasy when people dont support the war on terror.

I think that we agree more than we think we do -- and that it was just the way you said the original comment that tipped the whole thing.

I agree about patriotism, but what is patriotism? (Funny enough, I started writing a song called "Little Patriot" the other night talking about this exact thing....). Do you have to fall rank and file with your leaders to be patriotic? Do you have to support everything a leader does without question to be patriotic? Is questioning your government and not supporting a leader you don't believe in being patriotic? I contend that no, no, and yes are the answers there.

Being anti-Bush or anti-this-war may not be patriotic if we lived in a different society, but because it is America -- being proud to use one's freedom of speech against authority, in my eyes, is a perfect example of patriotism. Some people don't say it the right way and they don't present their ideas the right way, but being anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-killing saddam does not make one unpatriotic. I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

I guess I just feel that "patriotism" has been co-opted and redefined by Republican hacks and that they've created and maintained the "with us or against us" mentality. That says that you either 1.) support it, or you 2.)hate your country. That's Ann Coulter logic, which is to say, terribly faulty. Our country is not, and has never been that black and white, that dichotomous...and it never will be.

Is it unpatriotic to be disgusted watching a tyrant get lynched? Is it unpatriotic to admit that he is one of the worst human beings on the planet, but that yet he still does not deserve to be treated that way? Is it unpatriotic to not support the war or its architects, yet be disgusted and shattered every time a U.S. serviceperson is killed or maimed?

The Ann Coulters of the world want us to believe that it's all or nothing. That it is a liberal smokescreen to support the troops but not the war. I feel it is exercising every duty, and right, of an American to call attention to something I feel is inherently un-American while still supporting the Americans that are carrying it out and not wishing any harm upon them.

If that makes me and many of my fellow anti-war players unpatriotic, then we were never talking about the same word to begin with because that kind of patriotism is not one to be proud of.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think that we agree more than we think we do -- and that it was just the way you said the original comment that tipped the whole thing.

I agree about patriotism, but what is patriotism? (Funny enough, I started writing a song called "Little Patriot" the other night talking about this exact thing....). Do you have to fall rank and file with your leaders to be patriotic? Do you have to support everything a leader does without question to be patriotic? Is questioning your government and not supporting a leader you don't believe in being patriotic? I contend that no, no, and yes are the answers there.

Being anti-Bush or anti-this-war may not be patriotic if we lived in a different society, but because it is America -- being proud to use one's freedom of speech against authority, in my eyes, is a perfect example of patriotism. Some people don't say it the right way and they don't present their ideas the right way, but being anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-killing saddam does not make one unpatriotic. I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

I guess I just feel that "patriotism" has been co-opted and redefined by Republican hacks and that they've created and maintained the "with us or against us" mentality. That says that you either 1.) support it, or you 2.)hate your country. That's Ann Coulter logic, which is to say, terribly faulty. Our country is not, and has never been that black and white, that dichotomous...and it never will be.

Is it unpatriotic to be disgusted watching a tyrant get lynched? Is it unpatriotic to admit that he is one of the worst human beings on the planet, but that yet he still does not deserve to be treated that way? Is it unpatriotic to not support the war or its architects, yet be disgusted and shattered every time a U.S. serviceperson is killed or maimed?

The Ann Coulters of the world want us to believe that it's all or nothing. That it is a liberal smokescreen to support the troops but not the war. I feel it is exercising every duty, and right, of an American to call attention to something I feel is inherently un-American while still supporting the Americans that are carrying it out and not wishing any harm upon them.

If that makes me and many of my fellow anti-war players unpatriotic, then we were never talking about the same word to begin with because that kind of patriotism is not one to be proud of.

Thank you for having logical and thoughtful responses.

The comment that got under my skin and the reason that I posted that first post was, "Now, let's put the real war criminals on trial." Comments like that just really make me heated.

I agree with your post on patriotism. All the points that you made were valid. Given what I just typed, I feel when someone thinks that the US government is the "real war criminal" instead of the terrorists (and I personally include Saddam under the group "terrorists"), that is not patriotic.

You can disagree with the govnt, be anti-war and anti-bush and be very patriotic, but when you side with the enemy, there is no patriotism in that.

Citizens should be proud of the Freedom and Freedom of Speech that is included in the us citizen package, but just remember, without the people risking/giving their lives in war, presently and in the past, we would not have these Freedom's that we take for granted. The only point I wanted to make throughout this whole debate is to support the people who protect you.

I guess I should not have even posted to begin because politics is a very hard thing to debate especially when two people have very different views. But Brian, you seem to be a very reasonable person to have a debate with.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Thank you for having logical and thoughtful responses.

The comment that got under my skin and the reason that I posted that first post was, "Now, let's put the real war criminals on trial." Comments like that just really make me heated.

I agree with your post on patriotism. All the points that you made were valid. Given what I just typed, I feel when someone thinks that the US government is the "real war criminal" instead of the terrorists (and I personally include Saddam under the group "terrorists"), that is not patriotic.

You can disagree with the govnt, be anti-war and anti-bush and be very patriotic, but when you side with the enemy, there is no patriotism in that.

Citizens should be proud of the Freedom and Freedom of Speech that is included in the us citizen package, but just remember, without the people risking/giving their lives in war, presently and in the past, we would not have these Freedom's that we take for granted. The only point I wanted to make throughout this whole debate is to support the people who protect you.

I guess I should not have even posted to begin because politics is a very hard thing to debate especially when two people have very different views. But Brian, you seem to be a very reasonable person to have a debate with.

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I would say that cherishing your rights as an American to question things your government does that you don't believe in is just as patriotic as putting an American flag magnet on your pickup before driving it over a Dixie Chicks CD.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Ok.. if you think that your husband farting is a similar example fighting the war on terror, than that was a mighty good analogy!

my analogy was meant to show that you don't walk away from something that's pretty damn good because you might have one or two issues!!!!

it has nothing to do with patriotism if you question things your govt does.
just ask george washington.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

I am glad that we agree! Maybe we are more similar that we thought an hour ago. And yes, the words that I chose to make my original post with was in poor taste, but that just sprung from the irkiness (totally not a word) that I felt from reading the "real war criminal" post. I am glad that now, a few thousand words later.. my real point came out!

But believe me... u dont want me to hang out in the politics forum... I have strange views involved with politics... I can be very far "right" with one topic and very "left" with the other topic.. Which is why I classify myself as an Independant! Haha... my views sure would confuse the average forum reader...

oh yea... your dixie chicks comment was pretty bad a$$

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I am glad that we agree! Maybe we are more similar that we thought an hour ago. And yes, the words that I chose to make my original post with was in poor taste, but that just sprung from the irkiness (totally not a word) that I felt from reading the "real war criminal" post. I am glad that now, a few thousand words later.. my real point came out!

But believe me... u dont want me to hang out in the politics forum... I have strange views involved with politics... I can be very far "right" with one topic and very "left" with the other topic.. Which is why I classify myself as an Independant! Haha... my views sure would confuse the average forum reader...

oh yea... your dixie chicks comment was pretty bad a$$

i also didn't like the 'real war criminals' remark.
also consider myself independant...and i can relate to being 'right' on some things, and 'left' on others.
please, hang out here. the more the merrier.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

i could not agree more. Cindy Sheehan calling Iraqi insurgents who are maiming our soldiers "freedom fighters" is despicable.

i think that the comment that made you originally post is out of line, and you were well within your bounds to say something (although i think you chose a poor way to say it ). Not sure how many "off-topic" threads you read, but I would say to jump in any time you want. Many of us here have wildly different views, and we manage to keep a level of respect. Just off the top of my head, timmgirvan and Bababooyee and I have squared off in the most heated/at times angry discussions on abortion. We don't agree on anything on the topic. I got mad. I'm sure they got frustrated. Do any of us $hit-talk the others afterwards? Nope. We disagreed very badly over something that made us all a little agitated, yet I'm still waiting to hear if Bababooyee is moving to Michigan so we can hang out for handicapping and beers.

I think that by and large, we're all mature enough to handle those disagreements -- so by all means jump in anytime.

This has been a message from the Off-Topic room ambassador.

ps -- I'm really sad that you didn't even MENTION this, as I believe it was one of my very few, shining moments :

Actually,Brian, I can't think of anything better to use a pickup for!

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i also didn't like the 'real war criminals' remark.
also consider myself independant...and i can relate to being 'right' on some things, and 'left' on others.
please, hang out here. the more the merrier.

Thats cool.. I am glad that you guys understand what my view is, eventhough my original post was a bit out of line, I was just ticked.

Not agreeing w/ your government is one thing, but siding with the enemy is another!

[Downthestretch55]

Since I'm the one that made the "war criminal" comment, I'll clarify.
Germany has charged Donald Rumsfeld as a war criminal. Japan has already tried George W Bush on charges of being a war criminal, and he was found guilty in absentia.
If the US can hold the leaders of other countries to account for their actions, I see absolutely nothing wrong with holding the leaders of the US accounatble as well.
A recent Johns-Hopkins study found that nearly 600,000 Iraqis have died due to the actions of this administration. This administration has also disregarded the Geneva Conventions and suspended habeus corpus.
Let the trials begin (as soon as they are out of office, as they are protected currently).
DTS

[Downthestretch55]

Further reading....
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/645/81/

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Since I'm the one that made the "war criminal" comment, I'll clarify.
Germany has charged Donald Rumsfeld as a war criminal. Japan has already tried George W Bush on charges of being a war criminal, and he was found guilty in absentia.
If the US can hold the leaders of other countries to account for their actions, I see absolutely nothing wrong with holding the leaders of the US accounatble as well.
A recent Johns-Hopkins study found that nearly 600,000 Iraqis have died due to the actions of this administration. This administration has also disregarded the Geneva Conventions and suspended habeus corpus.
Let the trials begin (as soon as they are out of office, as they are protected currently).
DTS

It wasn't the country of Japan, it was comprised of citizens from Japan, Korea, Phillipines, and Indonesia. These tribunals are not uncommon,and occured during Vietnam, First Gulf war, and purely symbolic...period. a form a protest.

Every right to say it, just should be stated correctly and not spun.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

It wasn't the country of Japan, it was comprised of citizens from Japan, Korea, Phillipines, and Indonesia. These tribunals are not uncommon,and occured during Vietnam, First Gulf war, and purely symbolic...period. a form a protest.

Every right to say it, just should be stated correctly and not spun.

Dr Fager,
Far be it from me to spin anything. And that goes for all the other "spinners" too.
DTS

Am I wrong for laughing?

[GPK]

I see where one of the two hanged (Saddams half brother) on Friday was decapitated after he dropped through the gallows trapdoor.

Aint life a bitch....

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Dr Fager,
Far be it from me to spin anything. And that goes for all the other "spinners" too.
DTS

you not spinning,,lol....behold the power of the ac-130...inside every terrorist ..their is an american dieing to get out..vote hooves in 07


this advertisment brought to you by the hooves for president... pac money donated at the windows of many 1st tier tracks..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Am I wrong for laughing?

pillow, if you're wrong, you're not alone.