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  #81  
Old 06-20-2007, 01:04 PM
pgardn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
I don't, not for "caring" owners. Just say no.

Racing used to be considered sport, now it's considered business, no escaping that.

Anybody who gets into it (and I hope to, to a greater extent over the next 10 years) simply has to decide where they stand regarding such issues ... how much money are you prepared to lose by owning race horses? How long will you last in the sport at that rate of loss?

I think one key to betterment of racing for the horses, lays in involving people with less money in the sport, through fun, racing partnerships - not prospectus-laden, low-cost "investment" deals.

If my current racing stable, consisting of three tail hairs on a filly named Sumwonlovesyou , goes belly up, I'm out nothing, I'm still in the sport, and there is no overriding financial incentive for me to do anything not in the best interests of the horse, all the time.

Not true if I have the attitude that the money I have invested is not disposable. Successful people, who have made millions at their business, and who now get into the horse business, fully expect this business to be profitable for them, too.

Surprise! Racing is still a sport!
Man that is a bad business decision. Hope they have some stock and mutual funds to back that up.
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  #82  
Old 06-20-2007, 01:09 PM
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Mortimer Mortimer is offline
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"So there is a study or clear statement I have missed "








The number is legion.
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  #83  
Old 06-20-2007, 01:12 PM
pgardn
 
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Originally Posted by mortimerdexterfoxworthy
"So there is a study or clear statement I have missed "

The number is legion.
Ok. Thank God.

Confirmation that I caught them all this time.
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  #84  
Old 06-20-2007, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
I understand this. But has there ever been a thought of running two year olds in races that are not bet on? My problem is a good many two year olds are pushed in a race after their form has completely broken down because there is money on them and the finish line approaches. I have watched this.
Ocala does it every year.
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  #85  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmeastar
Ocala does it every year.
Aha.
But I am a reactionary.
Tell Ocala they are way out of line.
Thanks.
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  #86  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmeastar
Ocala does it every year.
They dont have 2 year old races. And would the horses not try as hard because there is no betting? Would we tell them about it beforehand or would they just see a blank toteboard and figure it out?
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  #87  
Old 06-20-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PPerfectfan
How bout making a rule that to run in the BC, you have to run in atleast 4-5 Grade 1 or 2 races? All of these phantom injuries would be a thing of the past.
Problem with that is how are you going to run your 2 yr old in 4 or 5 grade one's or two's? That would have eliminated Action This Day and Halfbridled and a bunch of others and Pleasantly Perfect , because he only had one graded prep before he won the breeders cup.
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  #88  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:52 AM
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we seem to have wandered far off the original topic of this string.

to get it back, i want to propose that for every grade 1 winner entered in a race they add 5 billion dollars to the purse and everyone in attendance at the track gets laid.

that should resolve issues of early retirement and declining attendance.

i can't believe no one else has thought of this.
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  #89  
Old 06-21-2007, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
Man that is a bad business decision. Hope they have some stock and mutual funds to back that up.
Exactly. These are living animals. It is the ultimate gamble.

Anyone who gets into any "horse business" as an owner, with the thought they will make money readily, as an investment with a predictable, positive return, is still living in the 1980's. And all pyramid schemes eventually collapse.
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  #90  
Old 06-21-2007, 03:01 AM
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to get it back, i want to propose that for every grade 1 winner entered in a race they add 5 billion dollars to the purse and everyone in attendance at the track gets laid.
I'd prefer your plan if adjusted so the trainer/jock/stable gets to get lucky, and the patrons on-track get to split 5 billion dollars.
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  #91  
Old 06-21-2007, 04:35 AM
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Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_im_god
we seem to have wandered far off the original topic of this string.

to get it back, i want to propose that for every grade 1 winner entered in a race they add 5 billion dollars to the purse and everyone in attendance at the track gets laid.

that should resolve issues of early retirement and declining attendance.

i can't believe no one else has thought of this.
how about they add a billion dollars to the purse and everyone gets laid 5 times instead?

except for pg1985, who wouldnt need the free door prize. his prize would be to have someone take him seriously.
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  #92  
Old 06-21-2007, 06:37 AM
Danzig Danzig is offline
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i thought all the talk of bc races for two year olds 'ruining' them would have run its course long before now. you know, kind of like the tight turns at pimlico myth...

a lot of good horses ran in the bcj, and went on to success later. both winners and runners up, with no ill effects from having run that race in late october.

2 yo's have been racing for well over 100 years. just like their older counterparts, you have to judge each on his own merits, and race accordingly. racing a healthy fit two year old is not detrimental to their health.

and yeah, as for that study, repetitive motion is what causes injury (galloping a horse every day for instance). it's not those high speed works that cause the injury--it's the lack of them. doing the same light works every day will not improve a horses health or fitness, but will accomplish the exact opposite.
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  #93  
Old 06-21-2007, 11:52 AM
pgardn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
The truth is that when racing 2 year olds, financially it is more important to cull your horses that cant run instead of actually earning any money by racing them. Something like 11% of the purse money is for 2 year olds. It just makes the process too long and costly to be holding onto horses for 3 years before they have any chance to earn. The training expense will kill you.
THis make perfect sense. This explains a whole lot that I did not consider about the business end. Sorry for all the probing (stabbing). Those maiden Sp Wt. purses are fairly hefty. But then options start closing down for the majority.
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  #94  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
THis make perfect sense. This explains a whole lot that I did not consider about the business end. Sorry for all the probing (stabbing). Those maiden Sp Wt. purses are fairly hefty. But then options start closing down for the majority.
Purse sizes are only important for those horses who can actually get a piece of it.
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  #95  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:18 PM
blackthroatedwind blackthroatedwind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Purse sizes are only important for those horses who can actually get a piece of it.

Or so you've heard.
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  #96  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Or so you've heard.


OOOOOOOOOO
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  #97  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
and yeah, as for that study, repetitive motion is what causes injury (galloping a horse every day for instance). it's not those high speed works that cause the injury--it's the lack of them.
Don't forget to focus as much, if not more, on the rest and recovery time that allows those desired physiologic adaptations to occur, not only upon the work that induces them

Give those good changes enough time to happen. If you don't, you risk injury and lack of improvement.

It's not that first good, hard breeze in 1:00: that improves the horse, or necessarily causes injury or weakness (unless loading, etc is exceeded) - it's also what is done with that horse afterwards.

It is critically important that the body is allowed time for the adaptation and changes stimulated and desired by that breeze to occur, and the body thus to become stronger.

Watch the way good trainers bring young horses along; when and how frequently they increase daily maintenance gallop length, how often they work the horse at speed - and look very closely at the RECOVERY times they give their young horses.

A month of Saratoga mornings would be perfect for this for the interested student. I want to know what the trainer is doing with the young horse on a daily basis, and how frequently, not only the breezes reported in the DRF.

The young horse runs it's first race. Great. Now, how does the trainer deal with the next three weeks, to capitalize upon the physical changes that race induced?

Horses that get plenty of "recovery" time, continue to improve over long months in a slow, steady, predictable pattern, as the horse matures and reaches it's physical peak.

I find it fascinating to re-read the daily training regimens of famous horses of the past (you can find them), and compare what these great trainers "knew" worked for horses as reflected in light of the scientific evidence and knowledge we have today. Those trainers didn't know "why" their training patterns worked scientifically, but they knew what worked, and they were right.

Look at trainers sort of known for "being hard on two-year-olds", or not having many late three-year-olds left around. Try to study the daily work patterns of their horses as babies, and see what they do, compared to other trainers better known for having good late three-year-olds, and older horses with long careers.

Sorry to hijack the thread, I guess I'm a bit passionate and fascinated regarding the mechanisms of exercise physiology that can be used to maximize elite performance in horses and dogs

Michael Matz is excellent at this, btw.
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  #98  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:52 PM
pgardn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Or so you've heard.
Hey the man is batting 67% in the money in my world. 100% on the dirt.
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  #99  
Old 06-21-2007, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Or so you've heard.
Read it somewhere
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  #100  
Old 06-22-2007, 10:55 AM
pgardn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot
Don't forget to focus as much, if not more, on the rest and recovery time that allows those desired physiologic adaptations to occur, not only upon the work that induces them

Give those good changes enough time to happen. If you don't, you risk injury and lack of improvement.

It's not that first good, hard breeze in 1:00: that improves the horse, or necessarily causes injury or weakness (unless loading, etc is exceeded) - it's also what is done with that horse afterwards.

It is critically important that the body is allowed time for the adaptation and changes stimulated and desired by that breeze to occur, and the body thus to become stronger.

Watch the way good trainers bring young horses along; when and how frequently they increase daily maintenance gallop length, how often they work the horse at speed - and look very closely at the RECOVERY times they give their young horses.

A month of Saratoga mornings would be perfect for this for the interested student. I want to know what the trainer is doing with the young horse on a daily basis, and how frequently, not only the breezes reported in the DRF.

The young horse runs it's first race. Great. Now, how does the trainer deal with the next three weeks, to capitalize upon the physical changes that race induced?

Horses that get plenty of "recovery" time, continue to improve over long months in a slow, steady, predictable pattern, as the horse matures and reaches it's physical peak.

I find it fascinating to re-read the daily training regimens of famous horses of the past (you can find them), and compare what these great trainers "knew" worked for horses as reflected in light of the scientific evidence and knowledge we have today. Those trainers didn't know "why" their training patterns worked scientifically, but they knew what worked, and they were right.

Look at trainers sort of known for "being hard on two-year-olds", or not having many late three-year-olds left around. Try to study the daily work patterns of their horses as babies, and see what they do, compared to other trainers better known for having good late three-year-olds, and older horses with long careers.

Sorry to hijack the thread, I guess I'm a bit passionate and fascinated regarding the mechanisms of exercise physiology that can be used to maximize elite performance in horses and dogs

Michael Matz is excellent at this, btw.
Michael Matz comes from that group that has to carefully observe every hair on a horse. So if Barbaro can go down, any horse can for any trainer. Only so much one can control. Just gotta adjust.

I also like exercise physiology being an ex-competitive runner and injuring myself a number of times. Really got me more interested in horses working with young cross country runners. Been put in the pasture though and people come to visit with treats.
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