A new poll - for men only

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'm not a TG guy, so I have no idea what the numbers were. I'll go out on a limb and say that the only surface that Student Council would have won that race on is the Del mar poly. He's really not that good a horse, trust me, I've pissed away enough money on him to realize this. I agree he's a better horse than Big booster, who is a claimer anywhere else in the world than California and Albertus Maximus. AP Xcellent, maybe. He seems to be a really nice horse at Hollywood and mediocre everywhere else.

I am not really a Lava Man guy, but come on, he is another zip code in regards to Student Council. I'm not saying I am surprised that Lava Man was beat, but the race to me sticks out like a sore thumb. I could be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time. But I would say the same to you. Maybe be a little more open minded and see this for what it was. Another eye sore on the Del Mar poly. I guess I am open minded to what could be another Cerin unexplained miracle, as we all know he is a bit of a chemist.

Both Awesome Gem and Student Council were coming off of consecutive zeros on TG. Lava Man had just run consecutive ones.
Student Council was underrated and Lava Man overrated. Lava Man is not in another area code, not by a long shot. How could he be? who has be beat that convinces you of how good he is? He simply hasn't raced against really good horses out there. Actually he did face a pretty nice horse in After Market two races back and lost. Everyone has excused his losses when he travels writing it off to not being able to travel, stall-walking etc. Now when he loses to a horse who ships in its the surface. I admire him but he needs certain circumstances to win. The surface did not help him, that is for sure. It does not flatter horses who fade late. I don't see the outcome as an eyesore and I don't know what you people mean that refer to it as a joke or an eyesore. I keep asking for a definition but all it sounds like is an outcome that you didn't expect or a slow time as if they are racing against the clock and not each other or as if there is some preordained outcome that everyone can agree on and anything other than that is an eysore.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens next, if the outcome is confirmed
or not.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yeah I am a man, although not so much lately. I was saying if KY and NY go to poly I'll start following Nascar.

NASCAR is quite dramatic lately as well lately. It's not the 'good ole boy' sport it used to be, unfortunately.

[SentToStud]

It used to be a horse like Student Council would not have stood a chance in a G 1, no matter the speed figs. But class is seemingly meaningless in G1 races these days. I chalk it up more to the dilution of Graded winners than the surface. But congrats certainly in order for those who had him.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

NASCAR is quite dramatic lately as well lately. It's not the 'good ole boy' sport it used to be, unfortunately.

Wanna cuddle?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It is the only race to be run at 10 furlongs on the track so far. If they had carded a race for Derby Trailers over 350 pounds at 10 furlongs one of us would be sitting in the record book right now.

There are only a few that would qualify. I may after the ice cream eating contest tomorrow

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Both Awesome Gem and Student Council were coming off of consecutive zeros on TG. Lava Man had just run consecutive ones.
Student Council was underrated and Lava Man overrated. Lava Man is not in another area code, not by a long shot. How could he be? who has be beat that convinces you of how good he is? He simply hasn't raced against really good horses out there. Actually he did face a pretty nice horse in After Market two races back and lost. Everyone has excused his losses when he travels writing it off to not being able to travel, stall-walking etc. Now when he loses to a horse who ships in its the surface. I admire him but he needs certain circumstances to win. The surface did not help him, that is for sure. It does not flatter horses who fade late. I don't see the outcome as an eyesore and I don't know what you people mean that refer to it as a joke or an eyesore. I keep asking for a definition but all it sounds like is an outcome that you didn't expect or a slow time as if they are racing against the clock and not each other or as if there is some preordained outcome that everyone can agree on and anything other than that is an eysore.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens next, if the outcome is confirmed
or not.

I just looked up the TG's for the Pacific Classic and the Whitney (since it was the last grade 1 for older horses) and I have come to one conclusion.

The older west coast handicap horses are the worst of all time. I mean that. The slowest bunch of dogs in the modern history of horseracing. If you use the Whitney as a comparison here are some of the most recent figs (TG) of the horses in there.

Whitney
Flashy Bull -1 3/4 in Stephen Foster
Brass Hat -1 in allowance
Lawyer Ron -2 1/2 in Monmouth stake (2nd)
-1 3/4 in Oklawn Hdcp
Dry Martini -1 3/4 in Cornhusker
Diamond Stripes -1 in Stephen Foster (3rd)
Magna Graduate -1 in Westchester
Sun King regularly runs -1 to -2 usually while losing
Wandering Boy -2 1/2 in Alysheba
Fairbanks -1/2 in Santa Anita stake


Here is a list of Pacific classic runners coming off of a negative number
Student Council -1/2

Very few of those plugs with the obvious exception of Lava Man have ever run a negative number ever

[Cannon Shell]

Here is a list of lifetime tops by the PC field

Hello Sunday 4
Time Squared 2 3/4
AP xcellent 2 1/4
Big Booster 3
Tiago 1 1/2
Arson Squad 0
Salty Humor 1/4
Porfido 3 1/2
Awesome Gem 1/4
Sun Boat 2
Albertus Maxiumus 4 1/2
Lava Man -4

Lava Mans numbers have steadily declined to the point where he is not even running negative numbers anymore which leaves this field as a disgrace compared to the Whitney which was not a real accomplished field.

[gamblin4ever]

I agree East Coast racing is better than West Coast, but lets give Student Council his props. He did run and win, even if the other horses are suspect.
Remember Lava Man was once a claimer also.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I just looked up the TG's for the Pacific Classic and the Whitney (since it was the last grade 1 for older horses) and I have come to one conclusion.

The older west coast handicap horses are the worst of all time. I mean that. The slowest bunch of dogs in the modern history of horseracing. If you use the Whitney as a comparison here are some of the most recent figs (TG) of the horses in there.

Whitney
Flashy Bull -1 3/4 in Stephen Foster
Brass Hat -1 in allowance
Lawyer Ron -2 1/2 in Monmouth stake (2nd)
-1 3/4 in Oklawn Hdcp
Dry Martini -1 3/4 in Cornhusker
Diamond Stripes -1 in Stephen Foster (3rd)
Magna Graduate -1 in Westchester
Sun King regularly runs -1 to -2 usually while losing
Wandering Boy -2 1/2 in Alysheba
Fairbanks -1/2 in Santa Anita stake


Here is a list of Pacific classic runners coming off of a negative number
Student Council -1/2

Very few of those plugs with the obvious exception of Lava Man have ever run a negative number ever

hmmm.

interesting to see that.

did i hear correctly the other day that it was student council that finished just behind brass hat in his record setting comeback?

also, is student council the horse that spent some time at oaklawn in the spring of 06? i know farish had a horse up there they had thought might be a good one, but i can't remember if this guy is the one?

good bad or otherwise regarding the race, i think the final time of the pac classic is what blew my mind.

[gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by Danzig

hmmm.

interesting to see that.

did i hear correctly the other day that it was student council that finished just behind brass hat in his record setting comeback?

also, is student council the horse that spent some time at oaklawn in the spring of 06? i know farish had a horse up there they had thought might be a good one, but i can't remember if this guy is the one?

good bad or otherwise regarding the race, i think the final time of the pac classic is what blew my mind.

correct on behind brass hat.

maybe change of scenery is all he needed.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

correct on behind brass hat.

maybe change of scenery is all he needed.

or maybe it just goes to show that some horses need more time to get to their best level.

[deltagulf]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Do I look like the type to follow instructions?

no.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Wanna cuddle?

Yes I know... I'm losing it.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Here is a list of lifetime tops by the PC field

Hello Sunday 4
Time Squared 2 3/4
AP xcellent 2 1/4
Big Booster 3
Tiago 1 1/2
Arson Squad 0
Salty Humor 1/4
Porfido 3 1/2
Awesome Gem 1/4
Sun Boat 2
Albertus Maxiumus 4 1/2
Lava Man -4

Lava Mans numbers have steadily declined to the point where he is not even running negative numbers anymore which leaves this field as a disgrace compared to the Whitney which was not a real accomplished field.

Just for comparison -- that means that Arlington's Forward Pass winner (a $45K overnight for three year olds on the Million undercard) Lovango, would have gone into the Pacific Classic have running a faster lifetime top than about half of that field.

Basically, it's little more than what lots of people have been saying ad nauseum now: no big surprise that all hell breaks loose when you throw a bunch of glorified claimers into a million dollar Grade I race. And by "all hell," I obviously mean that the horse with the fastest recent numbers wins, and everyone freaks out about it.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Lava Man has already won on all three of those and you can beat him on anything.

The superstar of California.
I think you see my point.

[satan's twin]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Probably depends on whether a certain former DT'er was allowed in and if he was running from someone he owed money to.

The quintessential image of Saratoga '07....that gooey mass of flesh and girth, in all his oracleness and glory, waddling to protective custody and screeching hysterically like a virgin cheerleader who just realized she just allowed the varsity quarterback to get to 'third base' with her.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by satan's twin

The quintessential image of Saratoga '07....that gooey mass of flesh and girth, in all his oracleness and glory, waddling to protective custody and screeching hysterically like a virgin cheerleader who just realized she just allowed the varsity quarterback to get to 'third base' with her.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

And the world beaters that Student Council was facing? Let's agree to disagree. You like it, I don't. I suppose we could keep going back and forth, but it's kind of redundant, no?

Who has Student Council raced against?

Watch the replay of his last race at Churchill. He runs two wide around both turns and battles with Brass Hat gamely to the wire losing by a head in TRACK RECORD time for 1 1/16 miles at 1:41.2. The rest of the field was distanced. That record had stood at Churchill for 37 years! Brass Hat despite many leg issues is a Gr1 winner and was second in the Dubai World Cup. This was on a fast dirt track of course.

Time before that Student Council catches a sloppy track at Churchill Downs in the Alysheba Stakes. Wanderin Boy one of the top route speed horses in the country gets an inside post and is therefore nearly impossible to beat. Student Council races three wide on both turns and chases in vain as Wanderin Boy hugs the rail all the way and steals it. SC finishes third 5 back. Half Ours was second. Wanderin Boy merely comes back in the Whitney to push Lawyer Ron to break a 33 year old track record at Saratoga!

Student Council’s recent running lines connect him to top winning efforts and track records in Kentucky, Florida, Ny, and Dubai. The polytrack did not move him up, it merely confirmed his recent sharpness. There was simply no horse in the Pacific Classic that had been connected recently to that type of class and speed.

On the other hand Lava Man’s running lines show him struggling to beat the likes of AP Xcellent, who is another horse who fades late and whose last victory was a second level allowance. His only graded stakes placing was when he held on for third in the grade 2 Californian against Buzzards Bay and Sun Boat. Big Booster also gave him a scare in the GR1 Hollywood Gold Cup and Big Booster is nothing more than a high end claimer/allowance horse.

I think many people just missed these details and Student Councils steady improvement.
Honestly speaking its Lava Man who is not in Student Councils area code at the moment.

For me this is not about the wagering or liking the surface, it’s a matter of trying to be objective. I prefer that to simply making flip statements like the surface is a joke and the race was an eyesore.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Do you think Student Council wins the race on the old Del Mar dirt?

Why not? The point I was making was that he was faster on the TG's (on dirt)coming into the race than everybody except Arson Squad who is distance challenged.
It was an embarassingly bad field for a older horse Grade 1 regardless of surface.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

That's not straight talk in my opinion.

No matter who ran in the Pacific Classic -- the race was going to turn out to be an absolute eyesore.