Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

This is what makes all these comparisons difficult. How can anyone really compare two horses like say..........Ghostzapper and John Henry and determine who was "better"? One guy could point to speed figs and overall winning percentage in races and conclude that Ghostzapper was CLEARLY better. Another could look at number of G1 races won and decide that John Henry was far and away a better horse. Which one is right? It all depends. Personally I would rate John Henry higher than Ghostzapper because he accomplished a lot more. But if the two were to square off in a race on the dirt, I would pick Ghostzapper. It almost seems like this question of who is the "best" is actually two different questions merged into one.
1) Who accomplished the most?
2) Who would win if they all met in a race?

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.

And bernardini was better than Smarty.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

And bernardini was better than Smarty.

Bernardini folded like a tent the first time a horse looked him in the eye! Alysheba was right about Risen Star although I don't blame Eddie D for that ride, the trainer (sic) and his big-mouth owner instructed Eddie to fall back out of the number one hole despite the fact that all the speed (including Winning Colors) drew outside...he was left with more than any horse could possibly do turning for home yet rallied bravely for third...had he been used early to gain a forward stalking position, we'd have 12 Triple Crown winners now! Risen Star was a great horse, Secretariat's best and that says a lot with the inclusion of "The Iron Lady"!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'm not so sure Bernardini folded like a tent. He was passed by Invasor, who as we know was undefeated here and multiple grade 1 winner. There is no shame in running second to him in the Classic IMO.

i wouldn't say he folded either.
but i also wouldn't say that bernardini was better than smarty.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

I thought Cigar's B/C Classic win was pretty damn brilliant...

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wouldn't say he folded either.
but i also wouldn't say that bernardini was better than smarty.

agreed on Smarty over Bernardini. the best comment on Smarty I have ever heard was that "Smarty Jones was a freak that could run fast and far, and both at the same time..."

That being said, give me all of the past B/C Classic winners at Belmont Park for one 1 1/4 race and I'll take Cigar...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by smuthg

agreed on Smarty over Bernardini. the best comment on Smarty I have ever heard was that "Smarty Jones was a freak that could run fast and far, and both at the same time..."

That being said, give me all of the past B/C Classic winners at Belmont Park for one 1 1/4 race and I'll take Cigar...

cigar over unbridled, i won't argue...but over tiznow? now that would be a race to see.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by smuthg

I thought Cigar's B/C Classic win was pretty damn brilliant...

His race that day wasn't even as good as Inside Information's.

[Buffymommy]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Speaking realistically about something isn't dissing it.

I was only kidding around. Although I do love that filly.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Personally, I think Risen Star may have been the best since The Bid but he never got to prove it...to many "ifs" but the Star's Belmont (on three good hooves) was a sight to see! Likewise, I rank Secretariat and Kincsem at the top of my "all time" list yet there is no way to prove they belong any more than others. The "who did he/she beat" argument is a bit meaningless to me...who did Man O War beat? Certainly I can argue that he ducked the best of his generation...Exterminator. He did handle a worn-down Sir Barton. Ribot destroyed all he faced but what was their quality? Fun discussion but simply a matter of personal opinion.

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I have a question for the Smarty Jones people. Was he better than Holy Bull?

For those that answer "yes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FTWSlxQ4aE

[_ed_]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around.

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

i believe they also didn't like the thought of weight for age, the gelding would have been giving weight to the original big red.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by _ed_

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

What do you think about all the drug use?

[_ed_]

I found that quite disturbing, had no idea that sort of thing took place to such an extent.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Yes, superstar horses can make fans of people; I just haven't seen enough of "new blood" around the racetrack. And I attend live racing often enough to notice. Since superstar horses race so infrequently now, I do not count on them to be the engine driving people to become racing fans.

My father introduced me to racing, perhaps unwittingly. My appreciation of racing is in the genes, without question. I was studying the racing program at a very young age.

I don't think it is apples and oranges to compare Cigar from the mid-90s to the greats from the mid- to late 70s, actually. I thought that The Bid's post about Cigar not getting Spectacular Bid out of a gallop was terrific. Clearly, The Bid was better, as was Affirmed, and Seattle Slew.

Did you read Steven Crist's article in the DRF this morning of how things have differed from the card of the 1987 Travers?

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...1&subs=0&arc=0

If anyone invents a time machine, I'd like to buy a ticket for one please.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What a huge difference between then and now. For breed and racing quality, Then (racing without Lasix) beats Now (running with Lasix, Bute, and steroids) by a mile.

Hate to rain on your parade but Bute and steroids were around in 1987. If you knew what was done to horses then in lieu of Lasix, you would be a big fan of it.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by miraja2

This is what makes all these comparisons difficult. How can anyone really compare two horses like say..........Ghostzapper and John Henry and determine who was "better"? One guy could point to speed figs and overall winning percentage in races and conclude that Ghostzapper was CLEARLY better. Another could look at number of G1 races won and decide that John Henry was far and away a better horse. Which one is right? It all depends. Personally I would rate John Henry higher than Ghostzapper because he accomplished a lot more. But if the two were to square off in a race on the dirt, I would pick Ghostzapper. It almost seems like this question of who is the "best" is actually two different questions merged into one.
1) Who accomplished the most?
2) Who would win if they all met in a race?

I'm glad someone mentioned him in 6 pages of opinions

[Bravado2112]

Submitted without comment...

All-time Breeders' Cup Classic winning Beyer Figs:

06 - Invasor - 116
05 - Saint Liam - 112
04 - Ghostzapper - 124
03 - Pleasantly Perfect - 119
02 - Volponi - 116
01 - Tiznow - 117
00 - Tiznow - 116
99 - Cat Thief - 118
98 - Awesome Again - 116
97 - Skip Away - 120
96 - Alphabet Soup - 114
95 - Cigar - 117
94 - Concern - 115
93 - Arcangues - 114
92 - A.P. Indy - 114
91 - Black Tie Affair - 120
90 - Unbridled - 116
89 - Sunday Silence (Easy Goer) - 124
88 - Alysheba - 122
87 - Ferdinand - 117
86 - Skywalker - 118
85 - Proud Truth - 120
84 - Wild Again - 113

---------------------------------------

While we're at it. Re-posted from last year:

Cigar
BC Classic - 115
JC Gold Cup - 115
Woodward - 116
Pacific Classic - 111
Arlington - 117
Mass Cap - 112
Donn - 117

BC Classic - 117
JC Gold Cup - 111
Woodward - 111
Hol Gold Cup - 118
Mass Cap - 117
Pim Special - 114
Oaklawn - 121
GP Handicap - 116
Donn - 114
Alw - 108

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Bravado2112

84 - Wild Again - 113

If that's correct, that means Princess Rooney ran a 121 Beyer for winning the Breeders Cup Distaff in '84 (by 7 lengths over Life's Magic). As her race, at the same ten furlong distance, went a full second faster than the Classic.

FWIW, Life's Magic won the '85 BC Distaff by 6 1/4 lengths over Lady's Secret. Lady's Secret won the '86 BC Distaff and the coveted title Horse of the Year.

Interesting that the 2nd place finisher of the first two BC Distaffs came back to win the following year.

It's hard to believe that Princess Rooney actually holds the record for fastest Beyer figure in BC Distaff history, and not Inside Information (who ran a 119)

Princess Rooney went 6-for-6 at age two - after an 18 length ALW win at Calder, she made her stakes debut ten days later and won by 12 lengths. From there, she shipped to Belmont and ran in a 13 horse field in the Grade 1 Frizette, which she won by 8 lengths. The 3rd place finisher, Weekend Surprise, was the dam of both Preakness winner Summer Squall and Belmont winner A. P. Indy.

She made her final start of her 2yo season in the Grade 2 Gardenia Stakes, which she won by 11 lengths. The 2nd place finisher in that race had won a Grade 1 stake in her prior start.

Princess Rooney was a Grade 1 winning filly with a perfect 6-for-6 record, winning her six races by a combined 56 lengths, for a 9.33 length average margin of victory. However, she lost champion 2yo filly honors to the deceased Landaluce, who went 5-for-5, also with a single Gr 1 win. She won her five races by a combined 46.5 lengths, for a 9.30 average margin of victory.

I wonder how close the vote was that year?