Breeders' Cup Going for Grade 1's Again

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Yeah, and notice it is the last option. How many horses can you find me that established themselves as turf sprinters and didn't try and become a turf miler or a dirt sprinter? You won't find any, any that have the talent to get out of that division do so cause there is no black type to be earned there. The ones that stay are the ones that can't do anything else.

And horses like Midnight Lute can only sprint on the dirt but we dont call him limited or untalented

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Which is kind of my point. If there were more opportunities than the talent level would rise proportionally. You would also see more imported sprinters though with the dollar as weak as it is only the mega wealthy could do it. It would also diversify the stallion ranks eventually which would be a positive for the sport in general.

I hear you, it was the same point I was making about the Juvenile Turf when they first added it. If you make the race the preps will develop. I saw the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo already jumped to G3 as a result of the BC Juvy Turf. The combo of the BC Juvy Turf and synthetic surfaces has to give a lot more incentive to breed for the turf. I don't have a problem with the race, just don't see the need for $1 million unless they can become part of the international series and draw top foreign horses to it. The current top horses in that division are the ones that can't cut it anywhere else so I don't see them as needing a championship.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That is absolutely untrue. The fact is that many of our top stallions like Mr. Greely are exactly that. You dont know it because there aren't any races here for them to show it. Mizzen Mast is another sire who has the ability to get a really good turf sprinter and himself was a grade 1 winner on the dirt despite being by Cozzene.

Yeah, but Mr Greeley is throwing runners in all divisions on all continents, he isn't just throwing turf sprinters out there. Maybe his horses would be best in turf sprints but the top ones don't run in them cause there is nothing to gain there.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I hear you, it was the same point I was making about the Juvenile Turf when they first added it. If you make the race the preps will develop. I saw the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo already jumped to G3 as a result of the BC Juvy Turf. The combo of the BC Juvy Turf and synthetic surfaces has to give a lot more incentive to breed for the turf. I don't have a problem with the race, just don't see the need for $1 million unless they can become part of the international series and draw top foreign horses to it. The current top horses in that division are the ones that can't cut it anywhere else so I don't see them as needing a championship.

I believe the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo used to be grade 3's

The Breeders Cup is not a real championship. Winning the race does not make you a champion or guarantee an eclipse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Yeah, but Mr Greeley is throwing runners in all divisions on all continents, he isn't just throwing turf sprinters out there. Maybe his horses would be best in turf sprints but the top ones don't run in them cause there is nothing to gain there.

He is a better turf sire and he can get a really good sprinter. There are a lot of horses that are bred to be turf sprinters but like you said there are no opportunities for them. There is no reason that turf horses should not have a sprinting division. There really isn't.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe the Pilgrim and Miss Grillo used to be grade 3's

The Breeders Cup is not a real championship. Winning the race does not make you a champion or guarantee an eclipse.

I'm pretty sure they were before dropping off to ungraded cause 2yo turf racing was considered irrelevant.

Don't let NTRA hear you say that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm pretty sure they were before dropping off to ungraded cause 2yo turf racing was considered irrelevant.

Don't let NTRA hear you say that.

I think it was becaue they cut the purses or moved them to Aquecuct or something.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If the BC and stakes committee are one in the same it is awfully interesting that they are denying the BC graded status.

It is hard to follow how the Breeders Cup is to blame for The Makers Mark, Just A Game or First Lady being upgraded. If any race deserves an upgrade it is the Makers MArk. Run in April, the last 3 year it was won by the future BC mile winner in Kip Deville, Miesques Approval and Artie Schiller. The First Lady gets a grade 1 field every year. The Just a Game is a race in June with little BC implications.

Of course they are one in the same. Look at the names of the BC-BoD and the TOBA-GSC. Same people. They are going to do what is in their own interest. This year it was bumping up those turf races while maintaining G 1 status for EVERY existing G 1.

I have no problem with bumping races up. I do have a problem with not bumping races down. And they don't bump some of the deserving-to-be-bumped-down G1's because that takes $$ out of their pocket or the pocket of one of their friends.

Can you imagine the ill-mannered looks that would be shot around the room if Stamps, Dinnie or whoever just won a race or cut a stud deal for a horse that won a G 1 that just got cut down? The horror!!

And when it comes time to throw one of the children out of the boat and actually bump down a G 1, you can bet it will be a Cali or Gulfstream race that goes down.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont understand why you guys care what grade a race is given. If they make the Juvy turf a grade 1 what is the impact on your life or the sport in general? Pretty much none unless you happen to own the winner. It just is not a big deal.

I also dont understand why anyone cares if the Breeders Cup wants to add races like a Turf sprint. So what if they have a million dollar turf sprint. It is not like they are taxing you with a higher takeout because of it. The result of the turf sprint should be the creation of another division of horses that may race past 3.

I could not agree more.. A lot to do about absolutely nothing..

Look at it this way...perhaps people we race, breed, and train for the new races and designations. How is that bad? Is it a bit backward I guess ,but who really cares.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

And when it comes time to throw one of the children out of the boat and actually bump down a G 1, you can bet it will be a Cali or Gulfstream race that goes down.

Which G1s do you think should have been dropped down?

[JJP]

That's easy. The Prioress has been the worst Grade 1 about 4 years running. I think this year was the first time in years a horse went into the race with a triple digit Beyer on their resume.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by JJP

That's easy. The Prioress has been the worst Grade 1 about 4 years running. I think this year was the first time in years a horse went into the race with a triple digit Beyer on their resume.

It is 3yo fillies sprinting in early July. How often do 3yo fillies ever break 100 Beyer by that point? The race brings together the best 3yo filly sprinters. Isn't bringing together the best what defines a G1?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

That's easy. The Prioress has been the worst Grade 1 about 4 years running. I think this year was the first time in years a horse went into the race with a triple digit Beyer on their resume.

Wild Gams, who was second in 2006, disproves that.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Wild Gams, who was second in 2006, disproves that.

Did Wild Gams have a 100 Beyer going into the Prioress? I'd be surpised if she did.

As for the earlier comment above by Sniper, why do 3YO filly sprinters need a Grade 1? This race is a prep for the Test, which is a borderline Grade 1 at best; probably no more worthy of Grade 2. In 2006 an Illinois bred who was off the board in her previous race, an Illinois bred stake, ran 2nd in the Test. As for the Prioress, you see horses like Acey Deucey win and you know the race is a fraud. If there's a way to go back and check out pps from the race, go do it and you will be very underwhelmed. Take away the winner from the race this year and is a rich FNW2X. I've railed on this race for years and the graded stakes committee is stupid for not downgrading it.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

Did Wild Gams have a 100 Beyer going into the Prioress? I'd be surpised if she did.

Out of curiousity, which one of these two options would you be more inclined to bet $10K on......that I'm right or that I looked it up to make 100% sure I was right?

[JJP]

So what did she get, a 100 going against a 5 horse field at Delaware? I never considered Wild Gams to be the next coming of Ruffian......what happened to her in the Filly Mare Sprint?

It doesn't change my point; the race is totally unworthy of Grade 1 status and deserves no more than Grade 3 status.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

So what did she get, a 100 going against a 5 horse field at Delaware? I never considered Wild Gams to be the next coming of Ruffian......what happened to her in the Filly Mare Sprint?

It doesn't change my point; the race is totally unworthy of Grade 1 status and deserves no more than Grade 3 status.

My my, apparently you don't like being wrong here. She earned her 100 plus Beyer figure with an extremely impressive stakes victory in NY.

You were wrong. We all are pretty often. Deal with it.

[parsixfarms]

The problem with the Prioress is that it is typically run about a week or two before the Azalea Stakes on Calder's Summit of Speed card - and the Azalea has a bigger purse. The competition dilutes both races. I agree with those who say that the Prioress - often viewed as a prep for the Test - is not worthy of its Grade I status; however, the Test is annually one of the best races of the Saratoga meet and fully deserving of its status.

[blackthroatedwind]

Furthermore, if you actually looked over the names of Prioress winners in the last 20 years you would see a host of Grade 1 horses winning ( and also hitting the board ). If you want to say the entire ratings system is screwed up I can understand but this race has many Grade 1 quality winners by today's standards.

Here's a few names for you......Carson Hollow, Xtra Heat, Marley Vale ( second ), Hurricane Bertie, Capote Belle, Heavenly Prize ( second ), Classy Mirage and Safely Kept.

[SentToStud]

Off the top of my head, a few that deserve to be looked at might include
-Carter
-Gulf PArk Breeders
-Del Mar Fut
-Del Mar Deb
-Brooklyn
-Hollywood Derby
-Oak Leaf

I'm tempted toss in the Cigar on the basis of Naughty New Yorker earning a G1 placing being just cause.

I'm not saying I personally would bump then down; I just can't see how they rationalize the need for a greater number of Grade 1 races.