Beyer still not sold on Big Brown

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Danzig

legacy? what legacy? he's already made his legacy as far as ieah is concerned. they wanted 50 million for their newest brainchild, and he's put them a long way towards making it. if he wins the belmont, he will be too valuable to ieah and three chimneys to run again. smarty was mentioned above, we all know what his last race was....
and if big brown loses, he'll still retire-as no one would want to risk a second loss, to curlin or anyone else. have to protect that potential 100k stud fee. i'll be absolutely shocked and amazed if that horse runs again after his race in three weeks. he'll either go out 5-1, or 6-0, but go out he will.

as for the public, unless they can afford a share in big brown, ieah and three chimneys won't care what they think.

I'd say he sticks around for the Travers and or Haskel, as Point Given did...and maybe <cough> retire due to injury.

And yeah maybe he can become just as ordinary a sire as Point Given became as well.

[freddymo]

Thre aren't too many horses to win the TC so 100k is fair starting point.. What is the difference were he starts within 3 years you know if 50mil was cheap or extremely costly.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

He's(CD) getting press because frankly this crop is very mediocre. The only horse that has shown any ability to give him a race is pointing for racing in Canada and that is why we are left searching and building up horses that perhaps don't deserve the press. At this moment unless someone improves drastically and if Big Brown stays healthy it looks he will join the TC club.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

Not to beat a dead horse here (sorry for the analogy), but who exactly has Casino Drive beaten that we're supposed to be impressed with (as compared to Big Brown)? A bunch of Japanese-bred maidens and a weak Peter Pan field consisting of Mint Lane, Ready's Echo, Golden Spikes, Cosmic, Spark Candle, Tomcito, Deputyville and Fast Talking. I'd say CD is making a big class jump in the Belmont.

Who exactly has Big Brown beat that we are supposed to be impressed with? Mint Lane and Icabad Crane are relatively equal horses and both were beaten by a similar number of lengths. Neither have beat anything and when they square off it will likely be the best horse either of them have faced. I, for one, am strongly hoping Big Brown loses cause if I have to hear anymore "best since Spectacular Bid" and "up there with Secretariat and Seattle Slew" comments about Big Brown I'll vomit.

[SniperSB23]

I just read the Big Brown, Big Red, and IEAH thread and vomited all over my keyboard.

[ArlJim78]

there's going to be mass vomiting in the days and weeks to come I feel.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

theres going to be mass vomiting in the days and weeks to come I feel.

And I thought Bernardini was overrated.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ELA

I completely understand your point, and I agree. However, I am also very clear on and aware of reality. Rather than debate who is and how a sportsmen would act, what I see is a very quick trigger pulled when an owner "disappoints" the public. It's become the common reaction, however, it also often comes from people who just don't understand the business. I hear people "count other people's money" and talk about a horse who could breed 100 mares at $75k and that's $15m in the first two years at stud. I've read this nonsense more than once.

Another example is James Tafel and Street Sense. As soon as he decided not to run in the Belmont, the gates of criticism burst wide open. In my opinion that was foolishness. Sure, different people have a different definition, but to critcize Tafel and say he's not a sportsmen -- that's BS.

Eric

Eric, as I remember, right after Street Sense lost the Preakness, Nafzger was asked about the Belmont and his response was, "What's the point?" I think Nafzger is a terrific trainer, and I never get tired of that clip of him with Frances Gentner after Unbridled won the Derby, but as a racing fan, Street Sense fan, (and NYer), I felt a little kicked in the teeth about the Belmont. I understand racing owners and trainers have to be half sportsmen and half investment portfolio managers, because of breeding values being so much higher than racing values, but, as a result, racing fans will be disappointed when a race is skipped because it won't help breeding value, and as this board shows, racing fans tend not to be quiet about voicing displeasure. (Which is true of all sports fans, actually. Maybe not tennis. At least not during the game. Or golf. I don't think I recall anyone yelling, "You suck!" at the Masters. That would be pretty hilarious, actually...)

On the other hand, had Street Sense gone into the Belmont, Rags to Riches would not have, and that duel down the stretch was pretty awesome to watch. Maybe it would have been a better race with SS in it, but I was pretty happy with it as it was.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Eric, as I remember, right after Street Sense lost the Preakness, Nafzger was asked about the Belmont and his response was, "What's the point?" I think Nafzger is a terrific trainer, and I never get tired of that clip of him with Frances Gentner after Unbridled won the Derby, but as a racing fan, Street Sense fan, (and NYer), I felt a little kicked in the teeth about the Belmont. I understand racing owners and trainers have to be half sportsmen and half investment portfolio managers, because of breeding values being so much higher than racing values, but, as a result, racing fans will be disappointed when a race is skipped because it won't help breeding value, and as this board shows, racing fans tend not to be quiet about voicing displeasure. (Which is true of all sports fans, actually. Maybe not tennis. At least not during the game. Or golf. I don't think I recall anyone yelling, "You suck!" at the Masters. That would be pretty hilarious, actually...)

On the other hand, had Street Sense gone into the Belmont, Rags to Riches would not have, and that duel down the stretch was pretty awesome to watch. Maybe it would have been a better race with SS in it, but I was pretty happy with it as it was.

I agree. However, I also see it slightly different. When Nafzger was asked about the Belmont, I think, in part, he was still somewhat disappointed that they got beat in MD. Maybe it wasn't the most PC thing to say, but I think there was an emotional element to it. Street Sense went by Curlin, pretty easy, looked like a winner -- then came the "we got it" -- and they didn't. A nuance, a beaten horse comes back and takes away all hopes of possible immortality.

I understand fans get disappointed, and are vocal. I am too. I just don't always voice it in a public forum. I could sit around with Bob Fox, Andy and Steve and talk about this stuff all night long. I've done it. However, it's also about what happens next, after the disappointment. Different people are wired differently.

Eric

[alysheba4]

Originally Posted by onebadbeast

Everyone Hates A Winner. Deal With It, Triple Crown Is Going Down, We Have All Waited 30 Years F0r This! Writers Have Nothin Better To Do Than Pick, Pick, Pick, Like A Bunch Of Bitches Yappin On Their Cells All Day. I Know, I Was Married To One Of Those Cacklers. So Lets Get It On! Casino Sushi Vs. Have A Brown Day. Go Brown And End The Long Nightmare.

....RIGHT ON......if people cant see with there own eyes that b.b is special. they should maybe opt for another hobby......

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

....RIGHT ON......if people cant see with there own eyes that b.b is special. they should maybe opt for another hobby......

special means a lot of things..The question is would he be as dominate or dominate at all in last years versions of the TC?

[HaloWishingwell]

Originally Posted by freddymo

special means a lot of things..The question is would he be as dominate or dominate at all in last years versions of the TC?

even before the question dominate, would he won both races ?

[freddymo]

I loved Hard Spun and was an admirer of Street Sense as well..For whatever reason I wasn't a Curlin guy..That said I think Big Brown would have won all the races but I can't substantiate it with ANY factual data to support this FEELING. I just think he has a look of a special colt but he has never had to be faster then just a very good colt so in summary who the F knows?

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ELA

I agree. However, I also see it slightly different. When Nafzger was asked about the Belmont, I think, in part, he was still somewhat disappointed that they got beat in MD. Maybe it wasn't the most PC thing to say, but I think there was an emotional element to it. Street Sense went by Curlin, pretty easy, looked like a winner -- then came the "we got it" -- and they didn't. A nuance, a beaten horse comes back and takes away all hopes of possible immortality.

I understand fans get disappointed, and are vocal. I am too. I just don't always voice it in a public forum. I could sit around with Bob Fox, Andy and Steve and talk about this stuff all night long. I've done it. However, it's also about what happens next, after the disappointment. Different people are wired differently.

Eric

Yeah, as a Street Sense fan, I was also pretty glum that day.

The breeding thing really gets to a fan, though. I loved Street Sense, was sooo bummed when he lost the Preakness, and then when he didn't come to the Belmont, hopped entirely off the bandwagon because I figured what was the point in cheering for a horse whom I knew would only be around for a few more races? It's the hard thing-you get so emotionally attached to your favorites and then they're gone, just a few races after you had a chance to discover them. Sometimes I feel being a racing fan means living in a continual state of fear of disappointment. And yet we still get back up after the inevitable disappointment and look for a new horse to champion. We're either eternally optimistic or very masochistic. Or both.

I think the people here get vocal on a public forum because for a lot of us, it's the only chance we really have to spend time with fellow racing fans, and you get overly excited talking about something you love so much. How lovely that you've had all night bull sessions on racing- for many of us, that's just not an option- not enough racing fans in our circles. So we yell and vent and brag and bemoan here.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'd say he sticks around for the Travers and or Haskel, as Point Given did...and maybe <cough> retire due to injury.

And yeah maybe he can become just as ordinary a sire as Point Given became as well.

i think point given will turn out to be a better sire than big brown.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

And I thought Bernardini was overrated.

just goes to show you, it can always be worse...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Yeah, as a Street Sense fan, I was also pretty glum that day.

The breeding thing really gets to a fan, though. I loved Street Sense, was sooo bummed when he lost the Preakness, and then when he didn't come to the Belmont, hopped entirely off the bandwagon because I figured what was the point in cheering for a horse whom I knew would only be around for a few more races? It's the hard thing-you get so emotionally attached to your favorites and then they're gone, just a few races after you had a chance to discover them. Sometimes I feel being a racing fan means living in a continual state of fear of disappointment. And yet we still get back up after the inevitable disappointment and look for a new horse to champion. We're either eternally optimistic or very masochistic. Or both.

I think the people here get vocal on a public forum because for a lot of us, it's the only chance we really have to spend time with fellow racing fans, and you get overly excited talking about something you love so much. How lovely that you've had all night bull sessions on racing- for many of us, that's just not an option- not enough racing fans in our circles. So we yell and vent and brag and bemoan here.

not one horse has gained any fandom from me this year. i didn't warm to any of them. liked hard spun last year, but that was due to his sire more than anything. not many danzigs left to cheer on.
in the last year, i've only really gotten excited for a few races. every dee tee race, and last years' belmont.
this year? yawn

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig

not one horse has gained any fandom from me this year. i didn't warm to any of them. liked hard spun last year, but that was due to his sire more than anything. not many danzigs left to cheer on.
in the last year, i've only really gotten excited for a few races. every dee tee race, and last years' belmont.
this year? yawn

I liked Hard Spun last year, too, even though he wasn't my Derby choice (I'm from PA, so I have a bias for the PA connections). This year... well... I'd rather not... Colonel John, okay? I picked Colonel John! There! I said it! Oh, I'm so embarrassed...

[sdjcom]

so you watch casino drive beat nobody either in two races,and now he's the best thing since pegusas in greek mythology. as far as curlin he is a year older and has matured. at this point in his 3 yr old year after belmont he had2-3 losses. you have to compare big to older horses ? get a life you don't have a clue what you are talking about, however you have the right to your opinion

[sdjcom]

Beyer Has'nt Picked A Derby Winner In 20 Yrs. He's Out Of Touch Anymore And Is Mad Because He Didn't See This Talent Earlier I Read
Beyer In The 70s' And He Isn't Half The Writer And Innovator He Once Was. Burn Out I Guess.