Horse of the Year?

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

It would take a hell of lot more then a slow pace and dirt....

the best way to do it is to lay down real fractions and finish, say 22 45 109 and 134

Azeri could do that, HL could not.

What? HL could very well set those kind of fractions, she has a G1 sprint race to her win column doesn't she? The Humana Distaff at Churchill.

They just never asked her to in a route race.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Theatrical

There is nothing in this exchange that would put me on the defensive, KG. Simply a difference of opinion. If you wish to believe the results would have been different in the LS had it been run on dirt, please go ahead and indulge yourself. I think you are seriously underestimating how powerful Zenyatta is on the dirt. True, she's run on it once, but what a race that was. Lord have mercy. I don't doubt what you think of her, KG. We just see things differently. I'll just rock on in my non objective world where she is concerned and enjoy her.

Hardly. I think she is even better on dirt. That Apple Blossom was major. In a fairly run race on dirt, Zenyatta still beats Hystericalady. I don't doubt that for a second. But I also know that on dirt, HL doesn't stop like she does on sythetics and she's a top class mare that if allowed to get an easy lead through soft to moderate fractions, would be VERY hard to run down. It can be a dirt race with fair fractions or a pace battle and Zenyatta could probably beat HL by more than she did in the Lady's Secret. I'm only considering how that particular race played out though.

[Theatrical]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Hardly. I think she is even better on dirt. That Apple Blossom was major. In a fairly run race on dirt, Zenyatta still beats Hystericalady. I don't doubt that for a second. But I also know that on dirt, HL doesn't stop like she does on sythetics and she's a top class mare that if allowed to get an easy lead through soft to moderate fractions, would be VERY hard to run down. It can be a dirt race with fair fractions or a pace battle and Zenyatta could probably beat HL by more than she did in the Lady's Secret. I'm only considering how that particular race played out though.

Fair enough.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

One last thing on the HOY

In 10 years you think they are going to be saying "remember the brilliant year Curlin had in 08'".....doubt it, what they are going to say is Curlin was a good horse but much better as a three year old in 07'

while in 10 years they will be saying remember the year Zenyatta had in 08' never challenged and undefeated.

just saying

i can't help but wonder if either will be spoken of in ten years....depends on how zenyatta does i suppose, she's not thru yet. but i don't think curlin did anything worth re-hashing ten years from now.

[CSC]

Sorry if I missed this in the 90 posts thus far in this thread, but does anyone here actually think Zenyatta would have won the 08 BC Classic had she run in it?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by CSC

Sorry if I missed this in the 90 posts thus far in this thread, but does anyone here actually think Zenyatta would have won the 08 BC Classic had she run in it?

I think she would have had a great shot. I don't know if she would have won but she probably would have beaten Curlin.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I think she would have had a great shot. I don't know if she would have won but she probably would have beaten Curlin.

The difficulty in assessing her are the fields she has been beating have been far less in quality in what she would have faced in the Classic. I'm pretty sure she would not have beaten Raven's Pass had she ran in the Classic and she would have to have to win HOY IMHO.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

What? HL could very well set those kind of fractions, she has a G1 sprint race to her win column doesn't she? The Humana Distaff at Churchill.

They just never asked her to in a route race.

Yes, I am sure she can sprinting, or maybe at Deleware Park where lots of strange things go on

but now I have heard it all, HL in the same class on the front end as Azeri (my point on the speed it would take to beat Zen). How many championships did HL win, people think she was some super mare in this thread.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by CSC

Sorry if I missed this in the 90 posts thus far in this thread, but does anyone here actually think Zenyatta would have won the 08 BC Classic had she run in it?

ehh, she would have finished in front of Curlin though....heck even the great Tiago did that. Curlin was not the same horse at the end of the year.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

ehh, she would have finished in front of Curlin though....heck even the great Tiago did that. Curlin was not the same horse at the end of the year.

Let's say for argument's sake she finished ahead of Curlin in the Classic, are we awarding HOY on a 4th place finish in the Classic? Deciding HOY is usually reserved for winning, not for going in the backdoor.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by CSC

Let's say for argument's sake she finished ahead of Curlin in the Classic, are we awarding HOY on a 4th place finish in the Classic? Deciding HOY is usually reserved for winning, not for going in the backdoor.

If Ginger Punch wins the Distaff again then Zenyatta wouldnt even have been given the championship if say she finishes third in the classic, let alone win HOY. I dont think that is worth the risk.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by CSC

Let's say for argument's sake she finished ahead of Curlin in the Classic, are we awarding HOY on a 4th place finish in the Classic? Deciding HOY is usually reserved for winning, not for going in the backdoor.

i think curlin did enough throughout the year to warrant winning hoy; losing on polyturf shouldn't knock him out of the argument.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

ehh, she would have finished in front of Curlin though....heck even the great Tiago did that. Curlin was not the same horse at the end of the year.

she would have fnished ahead of Champ elyses (sp) but not Curlin

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

she would have fnished ahead of Champ elyses (sp) but not Curlin

so you dont think Zenyatta is as good as Tiago?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

so you dont think Zenyatta is as good as Tiago?

I think it's hard to make judgements like these, Curlin was ridden to win in the Classic. Albarado probably moved too early and it cost him a few lengths, I seriously doubt they were in it to run for a placing, in the end it really doesn't matter if Zenyatta would have finished 4th or 5th, she would have to have won the Classic to be considered HOY, the argument is silly, it is almost like saying is Curlin as good as Music Note.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Danzig

maybe zenyatta can continue her ways, and steal the record from that monster, peppers pride. that would make mirajas day for sure!

[johnny pinwheel]

its going to be curlin with zenyatta right behind. any other thought is a joke. peppers pride, big brown and commentator beat absolutely no one and its stupid they are even mentioned with the top 2.

[RollerDoc]

No arguments on my choice here. The clear winner for HOY should be Big Brown. His results speak for itself. Based on the outcome of the BCC, I am more convinced Big Brown was the best horse in 2008.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

its going to be curlin with zenyatta right behind. any other thought is a joke. peppers pride, big brown and commentator beat absolutely no one and its stupid they are even mentioned with the top 2.

i think big brown will finish ahead of zenyatta-and he may well finish ahead of curlin. the contention that big brown beat 'no one' can't really be argued, as the same can be said about curlin. the one really good field that he faced, he lost-that being the bcc. now, he gets a pass for that from many because it's an AWT, but the finish can't be discounted. i think big browns fla derby and ky derby looked far better than any race curlin put together this year.
as for those who say zenyatta didn't face males, therefore she shouldn't be considered-you have a point, to a point. the distaff division certainly wasn't a weak one this year, and she demolished her 'peers' time and time again, on more than once surface. that's something that can't be argued for either of the other two who will garner votes.

[RollerDoc]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think big browns fla derby and ky derby looked far better than any race curlin put together this year.

Or any other horse for that matter in 2008. That is one of many compelling reasons why Big Brown should and in my opinion will win HOY.