Crist: The great distaffers..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by CSC

The game is just different Cannon, it keeps evolving, think about it Ruth was once a pitcher in addition to being an everyday player. You could never do that in today's game.

Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

Who backpedaled? you make it sound that if she goes on to win the BC and whatever races in between now and then, that it would be outrageous to compare her to Personal Ensign. I understand this whole thing of comparing one era to another is subjective. But why can't others have an opinion that she belongs with the alltime greats? Is it really that outrageous? Others who have infinitely more experience in the game than myself and probably even yourself believe so. Does that make them wrong?

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Andy, based on what? Class, speed? I have BB pp's right here and it all looks pretty similar.

If it makes you feel any better ... I'd probably take Banshee Breeze and the points.



She always fired ... and even her 3 defeats at the end were ok. She got beat giving Beautiful Pleasure 11 pounds at 10 furlongs in slop for the first one - Keeper Hill rode a good rail at Keeneland while BB was wide in the Spinster loss - the BC Distaff loss at Gulfstream wasn't bad either.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

yes he did, but like I mentioned in my response there seems to be this growing majority coming out of no where when I read many posts, its just not accurate.

it is pretty accurate i think. why do you think these conversations are going on on every horse racing message board on the net?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If it makes you feel any better ... I'd probably take Banshee Breeze and the points.



She always fired ... and even her 3 defeats at the end were ok. She got beat giving Beautiful Pleasure 11 pounds at 10 furlongs in slop for the first one - Keeper Hill rode a good rail at Keeneland while BB was wide in the Spinster loss - the BC Distaff loss at Gulfstream wasn't bad either.

THanks for posting this, I tryed 2 LOL.
Im kinda suprised a throwback like Serling would say Rachel and Z would have destroyed this one... I have a list of about 15 more just in the last 15 years... A thread is coming tomorrow.

[Gaining Ground]

was banshee breeze that much better than keeper hill? she was more consistent, but when both were on their game i dont think much separated them.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

it is pretty accurate i think. why do you think these conversations are going on on every horse racing message board on the net?

The narrative that people think Zenyatta IS the best horse ever, or even the best female ever is not accurate in totality. Yet that is the perception of anyone that supports Zenyatta.

I would put her in the group, but its a pretty good field.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The narrative that people think Zenyatta IS the best horse ever, or even the best female ever is not accurate in totality. Yet that is the perception of anyone that supports Zenyatta.

I would put her in the group, but its a pretty good field.

its not perception. its reality. not everyone, but definitely more than you are portraying. listen to what people have said and what they write.

i would put her in the group as well. just not near the top. not yet.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

its not perception. its reality. not everyone, but definitely more than you are portraying. listen to what people have said and what they write.

i would put her in the group as well. just not near the top. not yet.

me neither, she needs to win a couple more classics, or maybe next year we can let her slide back to the distaff.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

me neither, she needs to win a couple more classics, or maybe next year we can let her slide back to the distaff.

so much for the not accurate part.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

was banshee breeze that much better than keeper hill? she was more consistent, but when both were on their game i dont think much separated them.

WAY better than Keeper Hill!!

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

was banshee breeze that much better than keeper hill? she was more consistent, but when both were on their game i dont think much separated them.

You cant help yourself, you would argue anything I say, even if you agreed w/ me

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

so much for the not accurate part.

I am wondering what the criteria is to get her into the class of say an Azeri or Personal Ensign, its often inferred she needs to do more, I am just wondering exactly what.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

WAY better than Keeper Hill!!

careerwise, sure. and banshee breeze was a hell of a lot more consistent. she always showed up as you said. im just saying when they met, a neck separated them in the cca oaks and kentucky oaks. keeper hill finished in front of her in the mother goose and spinster. behind her in the personal ensign and bc distaff.

i just dont think they were that far off of each other when keeper hill was on her game. banshee breeze was always on her game.

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

You cant help yourself, you would argue anything I say, even if you agreed w/ me

it has nothing to do with you at all.

[Indian Charlie]

Historically speaking, Banshee Breeze and Keeper Hill were both not much.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Historically speaking, Banshee Breeze and Keeper Hill were both not much.

says who? you, gg and serling
??
the pps dont lie

[Gaining Ground]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

me neither, she needs to win a couple more classics, or maybe next year we can let her slide back to the distaff.

and really, this is where these issues arise.a few posts back you said you would put her in the group. i agreed, just not at the top, not yet at least. so i get this condescending post.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I am wondering what the criteria is to get her into the class of say an Azeri or Personal Ensign, its often inferred she needs to do more, I am just wondering exactly what.

its obvious what she needs to do. race more against males. maybe even travel a bit, although most would be happy with just one of the two. shes probably better than azeri, but she has a long way to go to be at the top of the rest and considering she has maybe 3 more races at most, she probably wont unless she runs a huge race at churchill. if she makes it which i place at 50/50 right now.

i guess if we would have a chance to see more of zenyatta away from the safety net it would be easier to determine this kind of stuff.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

says who? you, gg and serling
??
the pps dont lie

says me. i yam what i yam.

that being said, you'd need to have a better understanding of things to, well, understand why she is overrated.

for starters, most of her career was spent running against pretty mediocre fillies, high figs or not.

she also seemed to find ways to lose in the really big races she was in. Beautiful Pleasure was a really good mare, but some of these others she lost to, or struggled to beat, they left alot to be desired.

she was visually speaking, not that impressive a horse. watching her, i always felt like i was watching a plodder that was picking off tired horses that had nothing left.

i never did understand the high figs she got, as she almost always ran slow times, with slow closing fractions coming after decent to moderate paces. certainly not every time, but in the first half of her career, she screamed plodder to me.

finally, there was just this intangible quality about her that's hard to convey in a post. back in those days, i was no lover of eastern racing, but there were plenty of horses in the east that i was a big fan of. I say this, because i had the utmost confidence that she'd lose the Oaks, and both appearances in the distaff, and it had nothing to do with me being a biased fan of california racing.

the fact that a pretty mediocre keeper hill found ways to beat her also confirmed to me that she was overrated, and that her figs were fishy.

other than all that, maybe you should go watch a few races of hers.

[Indian Charlie]

By the way Joseph, did you really look at the pps for Keeper Hill?

She really wasn't that much.