Who wins Horse of the Year?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

If Game On Dude lost to Drosselmeyer head to head, what do you call how HDG finished in comparison? That's the problem. She wasn't disgraced, but giving the 4th place finisher of the Classic HOY? If she finished where Game On Dude finished (it's hard to abbreviate his name without it looking like you're shouting 'God'), it'd be close enough that folks might go for it a la Curlin and his BCC 3rd place. In his case though, he was trying synthetic and you could see the rest of his record as more than sufficient what with winning the Dubai World Cup. For all the 'ooh'ing over HDG's Woodward, a nice performance indeed, Rachel was a second faster and pushed from start to finish on the lead by every single horse in the field.

Curlin ran 4th in the BC Classic also.

I guess her case for HOY would be strengthened or weakened based on who is the frontrunner for champion older horse. Flat Out or Game On Dude?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Curlin ran 4th in the BC Classic also.

I guess her case for HOY would be strengthened or weakened based on who is the frontrunner for champion older horse. Flat Out or Game On Dude?

Oops. I've made that mistake before, I just did it in my head where it's much less embarrassing. I forgot ol' Tiago got 3rd. Oh well. He still had more excuses and wins in the DWC, Stephen Foster, Woodward and JCGC. As much as I adore Havre de Grace, her record isn't quite the same.

If Game On Dude and Flat Out both show up for the Clark, that'd probablly be the older male championship right? How do you see that affecting her chances depending on the winner? (I love how I'm campaigning Baffert's horse for him. He technically hasn't said Game On Dude is done for the year, and he's a tad frustrated about the Classic loss so he might go for a shot at HOY if he thinks another race'll do it).

[trackrat59]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Please everyone stop with the Rapid Redux talk. Its a great story and he is admirable, but thats it. The Classic beyer was crap yesterday, no one will argue the race was fast..... But Rapid Redux still would have made no impact. He would have run last. He is a starter allowance/claiming horse, and thats it.

No one is arguing your point. The reason RR keeps coming up is because he's by far the most consistent winning horse of 2011. No one has said he belonged in a BC race over the weekend, let alone the Classic.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jaripeo

from the winner of the drugsders cup drugsselmeyer

to many horses were very active on drugs

Your post indicates that you may well be very active on drugs

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

If Game On Dude and Flat Out both show up for the Clark, that'd probablly be the older male championship right? How do you see that affecting her chances depending on the winner? (I love how I'm campaigning Baffert's horse for him. He technically hasn't said Game On Dude is done for the year, and he's a tad frustrated about the Classic loss so he might go for a shot at HOY if he thinks another race'll do it).

I guess the Clark is a Grade 2 once again, so in strictly technical terms, I'm not sure that it's particularly important when discussing Horse of the Year. I don't think Game On Dude or Flat Out would suddenly become HOY contenders by winning the Clark. However, like you said, it would almost certainly decide the older horse Eclipse if both horses show up, therefore if Flat Out were to win it, Havre de Grace's position would be strengthened.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I guess the Clark is a Grade 2 once again, so in strictly technical terms, I'm not sure that it's particularly important when discussing Horse of the Year. I don't think Game On Dude or Flat Out would suddenly become HOY contenders by winning the Clark. However, like you said, it would almost certainly decide the older horse Eclipse if both horses show up, therefore if Flat Out were to win it, Havre de Grace's position would be strengthened.

Churchill Downs' website calls it a Grade 1 worth $500,000. http://www.churchilldowns.com/calendar/grid/

ETA: http://www.toba.org/graded-stakes/races.aspx Yeah looks like it's G1 per the graded stakes committee.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Churchill Downs' website calls it a Grade 1 worth $500,000. http://www.churchilldowns.com/calendar/grid/

I could have sworn I read in the post-BC comments that it was Grade 2, because Ruler On Ice and Flat Out were considering a start in there. Must have been a typo.

I guess, theoretically it could make a HOY contender out of the two older horses. And if Ruler On Ice wins, he might earn champion 3yo.

[Danzig]

they restored it to gr 1 status last year from gr 2, first time since 2006.

[my miss storm cat]

I want to preface this by saying I am not saying either horse should win HOY so any plans for a Frankenstein-esque angry mob complete with torches and pitchforks... can that wait for another day?

Okay good.

Just wondering about a couple of things...

1. If Goldikova was considered last year or the year before (in theory) or had won this year and was considered... why is it okay to consider a horse with one run (and I am not objecting to this) BUT it's such a joke to consider a horse like Acclamation?

I don't have his record in front of me.... didn't he win 3 Grade 1's in a row this year as well as 2 G2s?

If this is west coast bias than why is Tizway, who i think had 2 wins this year and both in NY (out of how many starts? 4?), being talked about?

He did travel but he didn't win at Charlestown or at Gulfstream so if that is going to be argued it's pretty weak... no?

Again I am not saying Acclamation deserves it by any means... only pointing out that I think the debate is a little unfair (!).

Stay Thirsty is, as usual, being ignored and while he wasn't stellar this year none of them were really. I'm surprised no one is talking about him

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

For me, its either NO ONE or Tizway. I cant see how they can give it to anyone else. I think Tizway's double is pretty strong at this point. I would give it to Game On Dude over Havre De Grace.

Originally Posted by Danzig

give it to union rags!


j/k. but i think he covered more ground today than drosselmeyer....

i think tizway should be considered. too bad he couldn't run today.

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think it's just a little west coast bias/wishful thinking from Vic. Just because the 2nd place horse in the Classic wrongfully won the award last year, doesn't necessarily mean it should happen again this year.

Originally Posted by 3kings

I agree with this. 10-5-1-1. Two G1's, a G2 and a G3, wins from 6F to 1 1/16. In a year where no one stood out, his resume looks better than the rest.

* * *

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Your post indicates that you may well be very active on drugs

Do you think you'd do any better posting on a forum in another country and in another language?

He's got a great sense of humor and tries very hard to let that come across through his English.

Nice guy... no need to insult him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I want to preface this by saying I am not saying either horse should win HOY so any plans for a Frankenstein-esque angry mob complete with torches and pitchforks... can that wait for another day?

Okay good.

Just wondering about a couple of things...

1. If Goldikova was considered last year or the year before (in theory) or had won this year and was considered... why is it okay to consider a horse with one run (and I am not objecting to this) BUT it's such a joke to consider a horse like Acclamation?

I don't have his record in front of me.... didn't he win 3 Grade 1's in a row this year as well as 2 G2s?

If this is west coast bias than why is Tizway, who i think had 2 wins this year and both in NY (out of how many starts? 4?), being talked about?

He did travel but he didn't win at Charlestown or at Gulfstream so if that is going to be argued it's pretty weak... no?

Again I am not saying Acclamation deserves it by any means... only pointing out that I think the debate is a little unfair (!).

Stay Thirsty is, as usual, being ignored and while he wasn't stellar this year none of them were really. I'm surprised no one is talking about him

He makes more sense than most anyone else.

Right now, I think the only three that make any sense at all would be HDG, Capo Blanco or Acclamation. HDG is almost a certainty to win it.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I want to preface this by saying I am not saying either horse should win HOY so any plans for a Frankenstein-esque angry mob complete with torches and pitchforks... can that wait for another day?

Okay good.

Just wondering about a couple of things...

1. If Goldikova was considered last year or the year before (in theory) or had won this year and was considered... why is it okay to consider a horse with one run (and I am not objecting to this) BUT it's such a joke to consider a horse like Acclamation?

I don't have his record in front of me.... didn't he win 3 Grade 1's in a row this year as well as 2 G2s?

If this is west coast bias than why is Tizway, who i think had 2 wins this year and both in NY (out of how many starts? 4?), being talked about?

He did travel but he didn't win at Charlestown or at Gulfstream so if that is going to be argued it's pretty weak... no?

Again I am not saying Acclamation deserves it by any means... only pointing out that I think the debate is a little unfair (!).

Stay Thirsty is, as usual, being ignored and while he wasn't stellar this year none of them were really. I'm surprised no one is talking about him.

You have to realize there is zero consistency. I've asked a similar question for years. If Goldikova can be one of the three finalists, why can't she be number one? Either she's in or she's out but don't be in the middle. Arazi was also one of the three finalists in 1991 off of one 2yo race in the states. High Chaparral won his title in 2003 and that was off a dead-heat with Johar in the Turf. Singspiel won a title in 1996 even though he never won a race in the U.S. Many horses have won witb only one race yet if I suggest that Ghostzapper should have been champion in 2005 off one race, I'm crazy even though everyone would admit that he was better than St. Liam and his Met Mile was the best race.

There is no set criteria for winning either a divisional championship or HOY. As long as you run one time in North America, you qualify. They will answer our questions by saying St. Liam deserved it because he accomplished the most but Goldikova deserved hers cause she was the best. If you are gonna say it should be who accomplishes the most, Acclamation deserves strong consideration. If you're gonna say it should be who was best, let's give it to Uncle Mo, who got the year's top Beyer in the Kelso and who everyone wants to automatically bestow the crown of most talented horse in tbe country.

One thing I think we can all agree upon. Clearly the criteria for winning is a moveable feast.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

One thing I think we can all agree upon. Clearly the criteria for winning is a moveable feast.

We can. I wish we would make it more definable. Maybe something like a horse has to start a minimum of six times and three have to be in the United States. Actually, the first thing I'd do is make them U.S. racing awards, not North American. Canada already has their own. Europe has their own so we don't need to reward them for coming over and taking one race. Some would argue that this would dimish the value of the award by giving it to a lesser American horse when a European with one start is clearly best. I'd say tough. If a hitter bats .445 but plays only 80 games, he doesn't qualify for the title even though he's the best. If a player averages 70 points in basketball but plays 10 games, he doesn't qualify. How was it not already cheapened by St. Liam or Miesques Approval or Favorite Trick or Zenyatta winning when they shouldn't have?

[my miss storm cat]

Anyone feel like commenting on this?

It's not about HOY but 3 year old champion.

What do you guys think?

http://www.ntra.com/blog/index/view/MTMzNw==

[King Glorious]

My feeling is that it's silly to eliminate Caleb's Posse because the majority of his success came around one-turn. I don't recall reading that the champion has to be the champion route horse. If that is a voter's preference, I can respect that opinion but it's not a requirement. I am of the belief that in a country where most of the horses are bred for and most races are at 8f and under, it is harder to stand out at shorter distances than at longer ones.

[RolloTomasi]

Didn't Xtra Heat win Champion 3yo filly honors despite being a sprinter?

[King Glorious]

She did and there are surely others that have too. I know Lost in the Fog was very close in 2005. These are exceptions though while the general feeling is that sprints don't count.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't Xtra Heat win Champion 3yo filly honors despite being a sprinter?

ABSOLUTELY.........................

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My feeling is that it's silly to eliminate Caleb's Posse because the majority of his success came around one-turn. I don't recall reading that the champion has to be the champion route horse. If that is a voter's preference, I can respect that opinion but it's not a requirement. I am of the belief that in a country where most of the horses are bred for and most races are at 8f and under, it is harder to stand out at shorter distances than at longer ones.

For me, Caleb's Posse is a pretty clear cut choice. I have no clue who you would call the top routing 3 yr old this year...(Animal Kingdom??)

[Seattleallstar]

for me this process was bastardized when Zenyatta beat out Blame for HOY.