Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The Breeders Cup Juvenile is almost always a championship deciding race. It features the best 2yo's from every region and some international raiders.

Derby preps -- are just that -- prep races for the Derby.

The Santa Anita Derby turned out to be the big prep race this year... Blueskiesandrainbows almost stole it on the lead and was beaten just a half length.

A lot of the serious Derby contenders are often rated a little more than you usual in Derby Preps and ridden to finish strongly.

no argument that the bc juvie is a big race. it's a just an opinion of mine that what a horse accomplished at two doesn't make him a top three year old. it makes him a top prospect for a three year old.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

No doubt about it. I think their plan will backfire though.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by 3kings

CDI wants earlier spring dates that Hawthorne currently has. I'm sure they would rather open a month earlier and have the Illinois Derby at Arlington. Then you will see a tweek to the scoring system.

I wonder, after they kill the race at Hawthorne, if they pick the race up and run it in the summer at some point. According to the website, Arlington doesn't have any 3 year old two turn races on the dirt (synthetic). They have turf races and the Arlington Oaks.

[slotdirt]

The racing calendar really needs more 3YO two turn races going over synthetics. I'm jazzed about that race if it ever comes to fruition.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The racing calendar really needs more 3YO two turn races going over synthetics. I'm jazzed about that race if it ever comes to fruition.

The way this sport continues to shoot itself in it's foot, nothing would suprise me.

It also will be interesting to see if the BC avoids Churchill for a few years based on this stellar plan.

[Linny]

The Preakness and Belmont are rarely oversubscribed so they have not had to implement a system, though te Preakness does have one.

It would be nice to have a way to encourage participation in all three races. For a while there was a bonus system that rewarded horses who ran in all three. It came to an end when someone (can't recall who) won the bonus for having run something like 3rd or 4th or 5th in all of them.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

The way this sport continues to shoot itself in it's foot, nothing would suprise me.

It also will be interesting to see if the BC avoids Churchill for a few years based on this stellar plan.

No doubt. Or any CDI venue. They've basically rendered the BC Juvenile meaningless for all intents and purposes (aside from the big pot of dough).

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Has the Illinois Derby really been worse than, say, the Blue Grass or Lexington in recent years? Horses like War Emblem, Ten Most Wanted, Pollard's Vision, even Musket Man went on to have decent careers in the Triple Crown races and beyond. Compare that with recent Blue Grass winners. The last Blue Grass winner to ever do anything with his career on dirt was...Peace Rules maybe?

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

The Blue Grass and the UAE Derby have no business being in the 100 point category or considered beyond gr.3 anymore. But the Bluegrass is like Keeneland, it cant be fooled with. Since synthetic we have Monbar, General Quarters, Stately Victor and Brilliant Speed. No graded stakes on the dirt between them.

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

They can't possibly exclude the IL Derby, right? That had to have just been an oversight. Why would the UAE Derby be counted and not the IL Derby?

Sure they could. Churchill wants Hawthorne gone. Recently there has been lawsuits back and forth and bad blood with Mr. D, because Mr. D bought the 'notes' that are on Hawthorne as a strategic move.

Arlington want Hawthorne to run a Keeneland type meet in April because that would mean more simucast revenue for AP, and they feel that the racing in Feb/March is subpar and drains the purse funds, plus they also feel that them not racing Feb and March would allow Arlington to offer even better purses because of that simulcast revenue.

I actually somewhat agree with Arlington on the issue, but it is how Churchill goes about the whole thing that always leaves a bad taste in people's mouths

[Scav]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

At least recent versions of the Illinois Derby have produced a couple horses who went on to run well on dirt. Recapturetheglory wasn't exactly Exterminator (or Old Rosebud), but he had a couple post-IL Derby successes. What about Yawanna Twist? Giant Oak won the Donn and the Clark later in his career. That's not even mentioning other nice Illinois Derby runners like Magna Graduate or Suave.

The exclusion of the IL Derby is 100% politically motivated, see my last post on the issue

[Cannon Shell]

I have no problem with a point based, weighted system. However...this is hardly an ideal system that they have created over an 11 month period if you believe them.

The way this system is presented (regular season , championship season, wildcard) in nonsense and anyone with a half of a clue will see through it. CDI consistently tries to "think outside of the box" but rarely comes up with anything thing that works when it comes to anything regarding racing. Rather than try to use slogans and bullshit like this to convince people that they are having "seasons" like fantasy sports they should try to create an actual road to the Derby that makes sense and rewards trainers/owners/horses for actually participating more often.

I would use a weighted system starting w/Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity because not capitalizing on these great meets and the attention racing gets during this period is stupid. Have the next wave of races (Champagne, Norfolk, Breeders futurity) be worth a bump from the first races. Then have the Nov/Dec races be worth another bump with the BC Juvy obviously worth double points.

Then have the Jan preps be a slight bump from Nov/Dec races and so on with the big preps(SA Derby, ARK Derby, Wood, FL Derby, LA Derby, Bluegrass) worth double points but still include IL Derby and ridiclous UAE Derby as well.

CD can promote end of the month point standing with bonus money with horses with top number of points getting nice bonus if wins Derby.

You can still designate the races you want to include (ignoring graded system which seems to be important to them) and even allow a few races like Juvy Filly/euro race to earn some points though a lower amount.

This way CD can still play God by designating races that will count, still allow a really good filly in, lessen the marginalization of 2 yo racing that they have now created and promote standings so to speak for road to the derby instead of the current hodge podge of races with no real tie in to each other.

[Cannon Shell]

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

[Calzone Lord]

What about a point system for Horse of the Year?

It would be real hard to come up with a fair and competent one for that -- but if you had one -- maybe it could force some better racing match-ups.

A star like Zenyatta would have had to run in a race like the Big Cap, Pacific Classic, or Hollywood Gold Cup ... or at least win the Breeders Cup Classic to get Horse of the Year.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The big picture problem with the system CD came up with is that it completely marginalizes traditional American 2 yo racing which surely will lead to a change in the training/racing of our best horses. Of course some will think this is a good thing but is it really better to have more overtrained, underraced horses running in Derby preps and the Derby itself? By making the last round of races worth so much more than races from Setp to Jan you run the risk of having the Derby look like a glorified nw2x race as a win in those races trumps as many as 4 or 5 wins in other time frames. Trainers/owners will pick up on this and start their best horses even later which has been shown over time to be detrimental as horses with solid 2 yo campaigns are more likely to have longer careers. The new ideal campaign that people will shoot for is a Jan Maiden win, a feb/march 2nd tier stake to build points and then the big April stake to get in. We have already seem suspect handling with good horses because there is this insane logic being used that racing horses hurts them but this pushes the envelope directly towards that theory. Why run in the late Summer with a promising horse as winning the Champagne gets you the same points as running 4th in the LA Derby?

Further fractionalizing racing doesnt help the greater good which a company that owns many tracks should realize.

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

[slotdirt]

Poor, old Genuine Risk would have killed in the Oaks in 1980 when she didn't qualify for the Derby. That would have been a way better story.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Other than the guy who sends his horse to win the Delta Jackpot with the idea its his ticket to the Derby are people really running in two year old races with the idea "hey, I am going to run in this spot because it will give me graded earnings", or are they running in the race because its money and they think they can win it with a precocious developed two year old?

I would also argue we are already there as far as the new way horses are being brought along for the Triple Crown, look no further than Bafferts Bode and Paynter.

What I am hoping is that you have a decent two year old with say 15 points, that they dont just map a 2 race campaign because they already have the earnings. If you do that and have a couple bad trips you could be screwed. Maybe it forces the more traditional 3 or 4 race campaign to ensure enough points. We need horses running more, not less.

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

[XIIPointStables]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Believe me owners/trainers are very aware of the graded earnings in those races. Because CD chose to make those races so worthless I can't help but feel that many will take a pass on any type of real campaign (which nowdays would be 4 races). I think that that the trend of starting horses later will grow especially with GP opening in December. IMO that is not a positive trend. Sure it isn't like the Champagne won't be run but the quality of fields in these types of fall races outside of the BC will surely be negatively impacted over time. Especially when you can follow the Hansen model of running twice against crows and winning the BC and being champion. More or less they are turning the BC juvy into the end all-be all for the 2 yo division (not that it wasnt heading that way anyway) but we will see a mad scamble in Jan-April as untested, under raced horses are tossed into the fire to grab some points. I realize that we have been trending this way but by making the big preps worth 10 times more than every qualifying stake run before Feb you are going to accelerate that trend. And i just cant think that this is a positive.

As a race fan this is one of the two big red-flags I see with the plan. Love the 2 yo races at Saratoga and wonder if these races won't be as juicy, as trainers start later/aim later for the races with more points. And would have thought races like the Hopeful and Del Mar Futurity would have some points attached.

The other red flag is CDI being able to to decide what races are important to qualify for the most well-known race in our sport in the US. Lot of power there. Poor Hawthorne got crushed with this thing and as others as posted, probably on purpose.

[Travis Stone]

The idea that suddenly NYRA will only have one 2yo race per week and 4 horses in their 2yo stakes at Saratoga because of this new Derby system is funny.

And I also cannot imagine any trainer with a talented horse will ever say, "Let's wait until February to start, so we can break our Maiden, and then get a nifty stakes score in March, stay undefeated via the 100 pointer in April and win the Derby." That might be more silly.