Shared Belief

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Fairly recent horses who will NEVER be mentioned among the GREATEST OF ALL TIME who were better than Commentator(everyone else feel free to add to this list as it is off the top of my head):

In no particular order
1. MDO
2. Invasor
3. Pleasantly Perfect
4. Mineshaft
5. Congaree
6. Lava Man(yep, i said it)
7. Perfect Drift
8. St. Liam
9. Candy Ride
10. Curlin
11. Roses in May
12. Game on Dude
13. ETC

I said one of. Not the GOAT. And the funny thing is his huge race beats every horses on you're lists huge race. Commentator was at least better then half of that list

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

I said one of. Not the GOAT. And the funny thing is his huge race beats every horses on you're lists huge race. Commentator was at least better then half of that list

Goodness sakes. You replace Commentator with each individual horse on my list in every race he was entered and each of their careers would demolish Commentators. Go the other way and it's still the same. Commentator could not pass horses and folded like a cheap suit when confronted. He did run huge in his one BC try though, so I'll give him that.

[cakes44]

And just so I know, what does one of the GOAT mean? Top 100...200...500?

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by cakes44

And just so I know, what does one of the GOAT mean? Top 100...200...500?

I have Commentator 13th on the Rock Hard top 50 since 2000.

[cakes44]

I'll give you credit, you put a number on it...and I know you'll stick to your convictions. Any chance you wanna put up your 12 above him?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Fairly recent horses who will NEVER be mentioned among the GREATEST OF ALL TIME who were better than Commentator(everyone else feel free to add to this list as it is off the top of my head):

In no particular order
1. MDO
2. Invasor
3. Pleasantly Perfect
4. Mineshaft
5. Congaree
6. Lava Man(yep, i said it)
7. Perfect Drift
8. St. Liam
9. Candy Ride
10. Curlin
11. Roses in May
12. Game on Dude
13. ETC

Commentator's best race was better than the best race of almost everyone on that list. Commentator beat St. Liam fair and square in the Whitney...when St. Liam beat him, his trainer employed a pair of rabbits.

However, nothing is as indefensible as suggesting Perfect Drift was better than Commentator. That is about as bad an opinion as I have ever seen.

Wow. The only thing I find amazing is that it has taken me this long to put you on ignore.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Commentator's best race was better than the best race of almost everyone on that list. Commentator beat St. Liam fair and square in the Whitney...when St. Liam beat him, his trainer employed a pair of rabbits.

However, nothing is as indefensible as suggesting Perfect Drift was better than Commentator. That is about as bad an opinion as I have ever seen.

Wow. The only thing I find amazing is that it has taken me this long to put you on ignore.

I'm amazed that someone of your knowledge believes a horse's best race is what makes him a great racehorse. Commentator's "best races" came when he had everything go his way, and when they didn't against non-tomato cans, he quit. You are letting your Zito bias blind you here.

Ignore away...

[jms62]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Game on Dude's "best races" came when he had everything go his way, and ran against tomato cans.

..

FTFY

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Commentator's best race was better than the best race of almost everyone on that list. Commentator beat St. Liam fair and square in the Whitney...when St. Liam beat him, his trainer employed a pair of rabbits.

However, nothing is as indefensible as suggesting Perfect Drift was better than Commentator. That is about as bad an opinion as I have ever seen.

Wow. The only thing I find amazing is that it has taken me this long to put you on ignore.

Pretty much what I said, but I'm sure it means more coming from you.

[NTamm1215]

Perfect Drift ended his career on a 19-race losing streak, even dropping three allowance races. Under no circumstances was he better than Commentator.



Commentator had injury issues. But when he was on his game, he was incredible.



Lava Man was incredibly overrated. Aside from his strong run in parts of 2005 and 2006, he was ordinary and has enjoyed an inflated standing by people all over the internet. Maybe it was because he was "the originals rags to riches."



That's just a few. I'll pull more PPs.

[RockHardTen1985]

I might have to move Commentator up from 13. I actually might be underrating him. I forgot how strong his pps look.

[Danzig]

i love looking at old past performances.

[Indian Charlie]

Clearly, Perfect Drift was a mistake, but for the most part he could make reasonable arguments for the majority of that list.

Candy Ride though, he would have handled Commentator.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Perfect Drift ended his career on a 19-race losing streak, even dropping three allowance races. Under no circumstances was he better than Commentator.



Commentator had injury issues. But when he was on his game, he was incredible.



Lava Man was incredibly overrated. Aside from his strong run in parts of 2005 and 2006, he was ordinary and has enjoyed an inflated standing by people all over the internet. Maybe it was because he was "the originals rags to riches."



That's just a few. I'll pull more PPs.

Perfect Drift actually made $4.7 million. He made over double what Commentator made. Commentator only made $2 million. Not only that, but 6 of Commentator's 14 wins were against New York breds.

In addition, I don't think it's fair to judge Perfect Drift off his last few years of racing. He was running as a 9 year old. He wasn't nearly as good of a horse during his 7,8, and 9 year old seasons as he was as a 4 and 5 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I think Commentator was a better horse. When he ran his best race, he was not going to lose to Perfect Drift. But if we are going to compare them, we need to compare them when they were both in top form. Who cares what Perfect Drift did as an 8 and 9 year old when he was over the hill.

Lava Man made $5.2 million. My big knock on him was that he couldn't win anywhere but Southern California. But when he was in top form in Southern California, there weren't too many horses that could beat him. Plus he did it on every surface- regular dirt, synthetic, and grass. He won a total of 7 grade I races. Commentator only won two. You guys like to look at speed figures. How many graded stakes wins did Lava Man have where he ran a 105 Beyer or higher? The answer is 9. How many did Commentator have? The answer is 3.

It's pretty hard to knock Lava Man's overall stats. When you look at the amount of money he won, the number of grade I races he won, how fast he ran, and all the different surfaces he did it on, it's pretty hard to knock him.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Perfect Drift ended his career on a 19-race losing streak, even dropping three allowance races. Under no circumstances was he better than Commentator.



Commentator had injury issues. But when he was on his game, he was incredible.



Lava Man was incredibly overrated. Aside from his strong run in parts of 2005 and 2006, he was ordinary and has enjoyed an inflated standing by people all over the internet. Maybe it was because he was "the originals rags to riches."



That's just a few. I'll pull more PPs.

You're right. Commentator was better. I remember him winning 4 Hollywood Gold Cups in a row.

[Seattleallstar]

Commentator was much better than Lava Man, Lava Man beat Grade 2-3 type horses in those Gold Cups. Anytime faced with the competition that was a step above of what he was beating in socal, he failed miserably. Lava Man was a good horse but in no way was he a "great" horse. Lava Man never ever came close to defeating a horse the caliber of a St Liam, which Commentator did.

Lava Man and Game on Dude are pretty much the same, good horses who gained a popular following in Socal. Not great and not even in the conversations for best horses in the country. Grade 2 caliber horses that were able to pick off weak Grade 1 races

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Fairly recent horses who will NEVER be mentioned among the GREATEST OF ALL TIME who were better than Commentator(everyone else feel free to add to this list as it is off the top of my head):

In no particular order
1. MDO
2. Invasor
3. Pleasantly Perfect
4. Mineshaft
5. Congaree
6. Lava Man(yep, i said it)
7. Perfect Drift
8. St. Liam
9. Candy Ride
10. Curlin
11. Roses in May
12. Game on Dude
13. ETC

Invasor, Mineshaft, Candy Ride better than the group listed, Especially Candy Ride who I put in the the Dubai Millennium, Ghostzapper conversation.

St Liam, and Curlin are in between being in that group and better than

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Perfect Drift actually made $4.7 million. He made over double what Commentator made. Commentator only made $2 million. Not only that, but 6 of Commentator's 14 wins were against New York breds.

In addition, I don't think it's fair to judge Perfect Drift off his last few years of racing. He was running as a 9 year old. He wasn't nearly as good of a horse during his 7,8, and 9 year old seasons as he was as a 4 and 5 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I think Commentator was a better horse. When he ran his best race, he was not going to lose to Perfect Drift. But if we are going to compare them, we need to compare them when they were both in top form. Who cares what Perfect Drift did as an 8 and 9 year old when he was over the hill.

Lava Man made $5.2 million. My big knock on him was that he couldn't win anywhere but Southern California. But when he was in top form in Southern California, there weren't too many horses that could beat him. Plus he did it on every surface- regular dirt, synthetic, and grass. He won a total of 7 grade I races. Commentator only won two. You guys like to look at speed figures. How many graded stakes wins did Lava Man have where he ran a 105 Beyer or higher? The answer is 9. How many did Commentator have? The answer is 3.

It's pretty hard to knock Lava Man's overall stats. When you look at the amount of money he won, the number of grade I races he won, how fast he ran, and all the different surfaces he did it on, it's pretty hard to knock him.

so, by using the logic of money won, curlin is the best horse ever?

perfect drift was more lucrative over his career, doesn't mean he was better. to say otherwise would be the same as saying mark rypien was a better QB than dan marino, because rypien won a super bowl.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You're right. Commentator was better. I remember him winning 4 Hollywood Gold Cups in a row.

You mean like being life and death to hold off world beaters Ace Blue and Super Frolic by a diminishing length? Or more like the same against Hall of Famers AP Xcellent and Big Booster in the same manner?

When you need to disparage one horse's accomplishments in order to make your argument for another, chances are fairly good that neither deserve to be in the conversation.

[Port Conway Lane]

Lava Man is only "incredibly overrated" if you hold internet opinion in high regard. The betting public determines whether a horse is over or underrated.
In the pps shown Lava Man was a beaten favorite 5 times as was Commentator. In Lava Man's last 7 races it took the public 3 races in a row to realize he was no longer the horse to beat. The bottom line is that Lava Man returned more to the betting public than either of the other two.

There is no disputing that Commentator was incredible when he was on his game. That is how I will remember him. Lava Man was one of the great claims in racing and he failed outside of California. Perfect Drift was one of the memorable ex/tri/super keys at the highest level.

Using Student Council as the only barometer the 3 have in common Commentator gets the edge. If BSF are used to measure who was better then Commentator was best. If graded races are used then Lava Man was best.
It's a tough call. The quality of competition Lava Man faced should be scrutinized to some degree. I could say that if you remove the Whitney from his resume Commentator only won one graded stakes race. I could also say that he only ran out of the money once in all of his graded stakes appearances when routing.

One thing I got a kick out of in the pps was how the chartcaller had Commentator 47 1/2 lengths in front of the 4th horse in the Woodward.