Dubai World Cup

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I don't see anyone getting their panties in a bunch, huffing and puffing about how overrated Invasor is like they did about Bernardini.

That is probably because Bernardini was overrated and Invasor is not.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I

Invasor is a great horse. Anyone who denies that is a moron. As is anyone who completely writes off Bernardini for losing by a length to Invasor. As is anyone who says Invasor is definitively better than Bernardini because of that race.

I think anyone who uses the BCC as their sole reason for Invasor being definitvely better than Bernardini is a tool as well.

But it certainly plays a part in coming to the overwhemingly obvious conclusion that Invasor, in all reality, is a definitively better horse than Bernardini was.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by miraja2

That is probably because Bernardini was overrated and Invasor is not.

Right. One race, losing by ONE LENGTH to the horse that "isn't overrated," makes Bernardini overrated. Solid.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think anyone who uses the BCC as their sole reason for Invasor being definitvely better than Bernardini is a tool as well.

But it certainly plays a part in coming to the overwhemingly obvious conclusion that Invasor, in all reality, is a definitively better horse than Bernardini was.

And what would be those other parts, considering that they never faced each other elsewhere? Obviously Invasor has beaten better competition, but does that make him a definitively better horse? You might say yes, but I disagree.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

And what would be those other parts, considering that they never faced each other elsewhere? Obviously Invasor has beaten better competition, but does that make him a definitively better horse? You might say yes, but I disagree.

I think the competition is a huge factor. Neither have beaten a TON, but then again there isn't/wasn't much out there to beat. But the fact remains that the only time Bernardini really got a test from anything resembling a top-class racehorse, he didn't come through.

On the other hand, I think the Classic is important and we shouldn't dismiss it because Bernardini had every right to win that race and couldn't do it, so regardless of the fact that they only met once the result was important. Sure it was one length, but it's not like there was even a second during the stretch where Jara and Invasor didn't have Bernie's measure. It's the richest North American race and the horse wasn't even being urged in the very late stages. I believe, there is more stock to put into that race than you're letting on.

Cigar Mile H. (G1) winner DISCREET CAT (Forestry), who suffered his first loss when checking in last of seven in Saturday's Dubai World Cup (UAE-G1), underwent a thorough veterinary examination at Al Quoz Stables on Sunday morning, according to the Godolphin website.

An endoscopy of his respiratory tract found an "obstructive granulomatous mass" within the colt's throat, as well as "significant swelling of the underlying throat wall," attributed to an "infective process."

Godolphin's veterinarians believe that these throat issues compromised Discreet Cat's performance in two ways. His airflow was obstructed, and he was also suffering "significant discomfort." The four-year-old bay is being treated for these maladies.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/edito...ll_edition.cgi

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I think the competition is a huge factor. Neither have beaten a TON, but then again there isn't/wasn't much out there to beat. But the fact remains that the only time Bernardini really got a test from anything resembling a top-class racehorse, he didn't come through.

On the other hand, I think the Classic is important and we shouldn't dismiss it because Bernardini had every right to win that race and couldn't do it, so regardless of the fact that they only met once the result was important. Sure it was one length, but it's not like there was even a second during the stretch where Jara and Invasor didn't have Bernie's measure. It's the richest North American race and the horse wasn't even being urged in the very late stages. I believe, there is more stock to put into that race than you're letting on.

But the point is that it was one race. There's no doubt that Invasor was the better horse THAT DAY (though not tons better like you say). But who's to say what would've happened on a different track on a different day? For example, does Discreet Cat's race in Dubai make Invasor definitively better than Discreet Cat? He might indeed be better than DC, but I'm not willing to make that claim off of one race.

You might say that it's a different situation because DC wasn't himself yesterday, but I don't think Bernardini was himself in the Classic either. I hesitate to say that, because the Bernardini snipers will rush on here and say I'm making excuses, but I'm not saying that that makes the result phony at all. I'm also not saying, however, that the one race makes Invasor better than Bernardini.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

You might say that it's a different situation because DC wasn't himself yesterday, but I don't think Bernardini was himself in the Classic either. I hesitate to say that, because the Bernardini snipers will rush on here and say I'm making excuses, but I'm not saying that that makes the result phony at all. I'm also not saying, however, that the one race makes Invasor better than Bernardini.

Your logic is spot-on, and I can't argue with it. And I know we've rehashed the whole "was Bernie at the top of his game in the BCC" discussion about 10 times. I do, and have stated why previously, and you don't. I think it was a fair assessment of their respective abilities and it actually got run exactly how I thought it would. My tickets on the race that day reflected exactly what happened straight.

Can you ever PROVE definitively that one horse is better than another? In all likelihood, minus the obvious examples (Secretariat vs. a 3200 claimer at CT), you can't. It's all in what you see. The way I view it, Invasor is a clearly superior animal to Bernardini. Not loads superior, but obviously better. I think he was much better (please know that when I say "much," I mean like 2-3 lengths, but not 10 lengths) than Bernie in the BC, all things considered. These types of conversations are never "definitive," because someone can always raise some sort of objection, even if illogical, that has to be considered. To me, it's a no-brainer in every sense.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Right. One race, losing by ONE LENGTH to the horse that "isn't overrated," makes Bernardini overrated. Solid.

What? Where the hell did you get that from? Losing that race didn't make Bernardini overrated. He was overrated long before that.
Losing a race doesn't make a horse overrated. How highly that horse is rated does. I didn't say Bernardini was a bad horse. He wasn't. There is no shame in running second in the BCC or running second to Invasor. But he was overrated last summer/fall. No reasonable person could dipute that.
You don't seem to fully grasp what overrated means. It doesn't mean bad. It just means......well......overrated.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

And what would be those other parts, considering that they never faced each other elsewhere? Obviously Invasor has beaten better competition, but does that make him a definitively better horse? You might say yes, but I disagree.

I'm curious how one would come to this conclusion. What do you base this opinion on?

Of the love of God get off the Bernardini. He is gone. Invasor is better this year than he was in the BC. Barbaro was also a great horse then by Bernadini standards. They just did not run enough to get all bent out of shape. I personally think Smarty Jones was better, but he had a short career also.

Invasor is a top flight older horse. The others never got to the older category.
If you take glory in Bernardini losing by one length fine. But he did not come back, Invasor has with a fury. He is a better horse now. Invasor barely even breathes hard after he is finished tough races. The animal is unique. And I love watching him run, great athlete. Maybe we can all say Candy Ride was the best horse we have ever seen cause he slaughtered Megs in such an awesome fashion. One time. And then he is done.

[outofthebox]

Lol. When and if Invasor loses this year, are we going to read all this "overated" crap again. I just love watching this horse run. I dont try and rate him against other great horses, or compare him either. I just am appreciative to his owners who have given us racing fans ther pleasure of watching him race.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Lol. When and if Invasor loses this year, are we going to read all this "overated" crap again. I just love watching this horse run. I dont try and rate him against other great horses, or compare him either. I just am appreciative to his owners who have given us racing fans ther pleasure of watching him race.

Bunch of haters around these parts. Alan, did you read that Discreet Cat was garbage after the race?....Horses lose all the time. Put to pile on when they do is rough.

[outofthebox]

Actually from good sources heard that he has had a very rough winter there in Dubai. And im not referring to the "spiked" temp weeks before the DWC. Anyway, yeah kind of expect the trash talk of these exceptional race horses when they finally do run a bad one.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Actually from good sources heard that he has had a very rough winter there in Dubai. And im not referring to the "spiked" temp weeks before the DWC. Anyway, yeah kind of expect the trash talk of these exceptional race horses when they finally do run a bad one.

Care to elaborate on a "rough winter?"...Just didn't settle back in to desert life?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Lol. When and if Invasor loses this year, are we going to read all this "overated" crap again. I just love watching this horse run. I dont try and rate him against other great horses, or compare him either. I just am appreciative to his owners who have given us racing fans ther pleasure of watching him race.

I would love to see what this horse could do on the turf also, should take to it well

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Scav

I would love to see what this horse could do on the turf also, should take to it well

Hawthorne fall. After you claim him and run him 20 times at Arlington in Starter Allowances.

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Lol. When and if Invasor loses this year, are we going to read all this "overated" crap again. I just love watching this horse run. I dont try and rate him against other great horses, or compare him either. I just am appreciative to his owners who have given us racing fans ther pleasure of watching him race.

Yes I'd like to thank them for buying the competition and retiring them accordingly so their favorite horses can dominate.


Woo hoo go Team Dubai.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yes I'd like to thank them for buying the competition and retiring them accordingly so their favorite horses can dominate.


Woo hoo go Team Dubai.

So you like to watch horses fornicate or run?

Originally Posted by pgardn

So you like to watch horses fornicate or run?

I'm a nomad at heart so I prefer watching horses fornicate.