A new poll - for men only

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Why not? The point I was making was that he was faster on the TG's (on dirt)coming into the race than everybody except Arson Squad who is distance challenged.
It was an embarassingly bad field for a older horse Grade 1 regardless of surface.

I joked that the Suburban was the best chance Jazil would have had on the year to have any shot at another G1. Apparently this was an even easier option.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

This thread would have been so much better with some female intervention.

Nothing could of helped this thread.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You're right. He was painfully obvious. That's why everyone that was so high on him now, was before the fact. I must have missed all of those posts. Or were they erased. It's always so easy after the fact.

I also forgot about what monsters Wanderin Boy, Half Ours and Brass hat are. Since you bring up Wanderin Boy's Whitney, where did Brass Hat finish in that one? And of course that track that the track record was set on wasn't souped up, I mean, geez the race came back so fast. And being two wide, wow. It's remarkable that he even finished the race with such a tough trip.

so I will agree that the west coast division is very sorry right now. Do you think Student Council wins the race on the old Del Mar dirt?

its not about being obvious before the race or that anyone posted it or bet on it. forget about any of that. lets say nobody saw it and we are merely trying to understand what happened. I don't know about you but whenever I'm engaged in a race that I have studied and the outcome is a total surprise I study it after the fact to try to learn. I figure if I can figure out what I missed it only makes me better down the road.

I wouldn't disparage any of Brass Hats races, as in his Whitney finish. Its a miracle he is racing at that level after I think two surgeries. The fact is he set a track record at Churchill and I doubt that it was the lone day in 37 years that Churchill has had a souped up track, and good luck in your race analysis if you ignore the racing path on the turn. I didn' say anything about a horrible trip, i simply stated the fact that he was 2 wide on the turns.

You said you're not a Lava Man guy, and also said that you think the older west coast division is weak, but I still haven't heard you say who was the more obvious horse than Student Council, that should have won the race? I have asked several times. Can you build a solid case for anyone? I have backed up my case for Student Council with speed figures and prior race review. You disagree with me so lets hear your case for any of the other horses.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I mentioned Brass Hat's Whitney, because you mentioned Wanderin Boy's Whitney. If you are going to mention one to boost your arguement, you can't leave the other out. Of course I take trip into account, but 2 wide? Aren't most horses at least 2 wide, this isn't harness racing.

I will admit that Student Council isn't as bad as I initially thought. However, he winning a race like the Pacific Classic is a tough pill to swallow. That has been my point since the beginning. I think it was because of the poly, you don't. We won't know until the next time he runs.

I can buy that Student Council might have been able to beat Lava Man on dirt. No way though that I can believe five horses including Big Booster would have beat him had the race been on dirt. No way he is worse than third and he is likely the winner if it wasn't poly.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Again, I know it is very easy now, where was your pre race analysis?

I've barely been able to find enough time in the day to cap Saratoga. Any additional time goes to the Ellis Park Pick Four long before the polycrap.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yeah I hear that.

But I can guarantee I would have found time to fully cap and bet the race if it was still on dirt.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You and I both. But I warn you, you may get some flack from the poly guys for these awful remarks about the poly you are making. Honestly man, this is my point the whole time, the race is a bit tainted on that surface. I realize arguements can be made it would have been the same result on dirt as well, so we'll have to see.

And my whole point this whole time is that races can get "a bit tainted" for any number of reasons, and you're raising hell over the surface. Races can get "a bit tainted" because of pace meltdowns, souped up tracks, a horse breaking down, weak fields, etc, the list goes on in perpetuity.

You're just making it sound like poly is the one single factor that allowed Student Council to stumble down the lane past, the way you're talking about it, a whole group of world-beaters in a million dollar Grade I. This race was plenty tainted once that ridiculous group passed the entry box.

Some of us are looking at lots of angles as to why that could have happened, beginning at the entry box, you're going with tunnel-vision and screaming about the surface and oh how badly it hurt your eyes to even watch.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

And my whole point this whole time is that races can get "a bit tainted" for any number of reasons, and you're raising hell over the surface. Races can get "a bit tainted" because of pace meltdowns, souped up tracks, a horse breaking down, weak fields, etc, the list goes on in perpetuity.

You're just making it sound like poly is the one single factor that allowed Student Council to stumble down the lane past, the way you're talking about it, a whole group of world-beaters in a million dollar Grade I. This race was plenty tainted once that ridiculous group passed the entry box.

Some of us are looking at lots of angles as to why that could have happened, beginning at the entry box, you're going with tunnel-vision and screaming about the surface and oh how badly it hurt your eyes to even watch.

B, the surface blows. JMO.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

B, the surface blows. JMO.

That's a fine opinion to have, and I fully respect anyone's choice to not take their wagering dollars to Del Mar this summer.

But at the same time, that's not a solid argument in this type of conversation.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

My opinion is that it was the surface. You disagree. Neither one of us will know for sure until that monster runs again. It should be fun to revisit it again.

Of course, you're going to be intellectually honest about it and also take into account the field Student Council faces next time, right?

Naturally, he could finish up the track on dirt against East Coast horses, and it would prove almost nothing about this race.

Just putting that out there in advance so everyone doesn't get too proud of themselves if he returns to tougher competition and doesn't duplicate this effort.

[Antitrust32]

2:07 final time... really Brian, even those dogs should be able to run faster than that.

the poly is crap! at least cushion seems to be ok, hopefully if other tracks switch, it will be to cushion and not poly.

Del Mar, Woodbine, and Arlington should throw that **** out and get a refund.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

It's as solid as monday morning quarterbacking.

I'd much rather try to make sense of it and look at it logically instead of letting a groundswell of emotion come over me and flip out and scream bloody poly murder everytime something happens on poly that I don't like/expect/care for and everytime a horse wins a graded stakes race that I don't think deserves it.

But hey, to each his own -- if it works for you....

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Brian, please. Being a bit overdramatic aren't we?

Sure seems like you are to me.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

2:07 final time... really Brian, even those dogs should be able to run faster than that.

Yep.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Yep.

Star of Cozzene and John Henry won their Arlington Millions in 2:07 and change, I believe. Dogs.

Uproar, please.

[boswd]

Some facts from the Pac Classic

Poly was the reasone for the slooooww time - Fact

Despite the size of it the field outside of LavaMan was weak - Fact

Lava Man did not handle the poly well - fact

Student Council is a non deserving GI winner who benefited from the Poly -
we don't know yet. We will have to see how he does in his next few efforts. It's not the first time a longshot bomb (mule) has won a major race.
Hmm Giacomo, Lemons forever ( I think that's the one - KY Oaks winner last year) Sarava in the Belmont, Volponie in the BCC. just to name a few.

Let's see what he does the rest of the year.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Apples and oranges again.

Only slightly, and you know it.

Sure the turf was slow those days. Poly at Del Mar is slow.

Turf, and poly are apples and oranges, as you choose to say.

However, using final times on surfaces that are obviously slower than their traditional counterparts as a sole reason to discredit a performance is a silly notion. Ie, what basis are you using for finding the final 2:07 time to be slow? Traditional dirt? Del Mar's poly?

No fruit comparison needed.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Star of Cozzene and John Henry won their Arlington Millions in 2:07 and change, I believe. Dogs.

Uproar, please.

Not sure I would compare poly to turf...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Not sure I would compare poly to turf...

Neither would I, except to make this incredible point I'm in the middle of making.

See my last post -- so why are you comparing final times on poly to an old dirt track?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Neither would I, except to make this incredible point I'm in the middle of making.

See my last post -- so why are you comparing final times on poly to an old dirt track?

I see your point, but the fact still remains that it was run probably an average of 7 seconds slower than it ever has been. That's kind of scary... why would we want to change racing in that kind of manner?