Chris Antley

[fpsoxfan]

This thread has taken many interesting paths

Chris Antley
Kent D.
Lukas
Flipping

[NoCarolinaTony]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He was a better rider than at least half the people in the Hall of Fame and has the credentials.

Andy,

When Chris was on his game and in the right frame of mind....he was one of the best. he was a personal favorite of mine early on in his career.

You couldn't be more right.....at least this time...lol.

NC Tony

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Maybe he grew tired of hearing embellished stories about Antley. I think perhaps you need to look at it at least a little from his perspective. Antley wasn't exactly the guy the media sometimes portrayed him to be. Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of sympathy for his problems, a great deal, and I am genuinely sorry for what happened to him, and wish the media hadn't enabled him during the TC of 1999, and even said so then, but Antley didn't exactly always seperate his problems from his job. Lukas probably just got weary from hearing a whole lot of BS and sounded off. Would it have been better left unsaid? Perhaps.....but that doesn't make Lukas wrong.

Good point Andy...well said.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

If you raise it 10 pounds don't you think you will have people who were once a bit too big to be a jockey, now trying to be one. How do you think they will trying to make weight? Probably the same way. No matter how high or low the weights are, someone will be a bit too big and will be doing things not too healthy to try and make weight.

I don't see that as a reason not to raise weights. It's far easier to find humans who can remain healthy at a weight 10lbs over current, especially women. We shouldn't ignore that people have gotten markedly bigger over the last 100 years. Why do you think so few Americans (comparably) are jockeys? Americans have reaped the health and nutritional benefits of living here for decades and decades, compared to people from many other countries. We're huge.

And I think Lucas got really tired of tons of reporters asking him about the wonderfully close personal relationship between Antley and Charismatic, and finally set them straight.

Antley was a very gifted jockey. It's a shame he succumbed to his personal demons, it seemed so promising for him the last year of his life, with a new wife and baby.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Riot

I don't see that as a reason not to raise weights. It's far easier to find humans who can remain healthy at a weight 10lbs over current, especially women. We shouldn't ignore that people have gotten markedly bigger over the last 100 years. Why do you think so few Americans (comparably) are jockeys? Americans have reaped the health and nutritional benefits of living here for decades and decades, compared to people from many other countries. We're huge.

And I think Lucas got really tired of tons of reporters asking him about the wonderfully close personal relationship between Antley and Charismatic, and finally set them straight.

Antley was a very gifted jockey. It's a shame he succumbed to his personal demons, it seemed so promising for him the last year of his life, with a new wife and baby.

"We shouldn't ignore that people have gotten markedly bigger over the last 100 years."

dwarfs, for instance, are 30% taller since 1910.

"Why do you think so few Americans (comparably) are jockeys?"

too busy exporting our exceptional health and nutrition to the rest of the world.

"Americans have reaped the health and nutritional benefits of living here for decades and decades, compared to people from many other countries."

is that just a nice way of saying we're shockingly fat?

"We're huge."

oh.






maybe the solution is bigger horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Whatever you may think of Wayne Lukas, hasn't he at least earned the right to have his name spelled correctly?

[Riot]

maybe the solution is bigger horses.

Or horses with bigger bone.

Some professions in life demand that you be a certain size. A jockey is obviously one of them. If you can't be the size it requires, than you should not be a jock. It's pretty simple. Don't you think with a few pounds the same unhealthy practices will be going on?

Yes, as long as jockeys are required to be a particular weight, many will have to keep their jobs by abusing their health. Hey, at least there exists an athletic population not on steroids.

But the weight the sport calls for is arbitrary. Jocks are incredible athletes. Wish the sport could allow them a little more health, as the practices required to make weight have long-term and permanent negative health ramifications.

Whatever you may think of Wayne Lukas, hasn't he at least earned the right to have his name spelled correctly?

My sincere apologies to Mr. Lukas for misspelling his name

[Cannon Shell]

The problem with the weights is only a problem because the jockeys say it is. Like Da Hoss said, where do you draw the line? If you are too big and can't make weight naturally then it is YOUR fault if you resort to flipping, not horse racings. The minimum weights have been raised quite a bit. It wasnt long ago in KY if you had a 3 year old who qualified for all the allowances you could get in with 108. Not so any more.

As others have said including Wayne and Pat Day, raising the weights will not help solve the issue of flipping because bigger people will resort to doing it to make weight and those currently doing it wont stop, they will just eat more and in turn flip more.

In the end the horses will pay the price.

[whodey17]

I agree with DaHoss and Cannon. However, I think weights should be considered in order to keep up with the pattern of people becoming physically larger.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The problem with the weights is only a problem because the jockeys say it is. Like Da Hoss said, where do you draw the line? If you are too big and can't make weight naturally then it is YOUR fault if you resort to flipping, not horse racings. The minimum weights have been raised quite a bit. It wasnt long ago in KY if you had a 3 year old who qualified for all the allowances you could get in with 108. Not so any more.

As others have said including Wayne and Pat Day, raising the weights will not help solve the issue of flipping because bigger people will resort to doing it to make weight and those currently doing it wont stop, they will just eat more and in turn flip more.

In the end the horses will pay the price.

Chuck,

I've heard both sides of the argument, but this is the part of the argument I don't understand. A horse is a rather big animal. How would an added 2 - 4 pounds hurt a horse?
__________________________________________________ ____________

As far as the jockey weights in general. I'm not buying the notion that people are getting fatter. There were fat people 100 years ago. Even though Hossy and others bring up the point that flipping will still occur no matter what the weight is, I just feel that they should still raise it. Maybe it will increase the jockey pool. What's wrong with that? The bottom line is 110-112 lbs. is not a normal weight for 98% of the human population. I'd just like to see them give it a try and let the facts speak for themself.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I know exactly what you were doing....pretending you knew something that you not only didn't know but was patently false.

I get it perfectly....you're a desperate lying wannabee.

wannabee what? im a fan of the game and a horse owner. believe me i got much better things to do especially these days especially taking care of my father with his illness then to come on here just make something like that up, anybody who has known me for over 5+ years since the espn board will tell you that since you apparently dont know me. i see all you can do is resort to namecalling since you havent a clue as to what youre talking about, i think ill take the word of somebody who was actually ON THE HORSES BACK over yours anyday. also if you go back and watch some of his races maybe youll see what im talking about. again you couldnt answer my question which tells me im wasting my time, and again youre just so blind and think im bashing zito when im not. sometimes even when a horse is properly maintained and recieves terrific care they still can come up very sore and have serious issues, especially ones who run as hard as DC did. you say you talk to NZ and he is your friend and are around his barn, well you obviously arent paying attention and arent learning anything from him

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

luka$$ coming out after that HBO special was luka$$ just being himself and wanting in the spotlight as he always does! he says he doesnt feel sorry for anyone driving 2 mercedes, shane sellers in particular. hmmmmmmm didnt know there was a penalty for success all of a sudden. pretty clear as day luka$$ doesnt give a sh1t about any except himself and his own ego. you cant deny what hes accomplished in the past but ironically since antleys passing and those comments hes made he hasnt performed like a HOF trainer. hes lost owners, very prominent ones(think that happened for no reason at all?) and hasnt had anywhere near a HOF trainers %. when it comes to opinions on jockeys i think ill disregard luka$$', after all this was a guy who had someone named ct lang(who?, exactly) ridin the barn for him at arlington several years ago who went 0 for 70 somethin for the meet

[Oaklawnfan]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

If you raise it 10 pounds don't you think you will have people who were once a bit too big to be a jockey, now trying to be one. How do you think they will trying to make weight? Probably the same way. No matter how high or low the weights are, someone will be a bit too big and will be doing things not too healthy to try and make weight.

I used to think these horses where so fragile. Then I saw Larry Jones breezing his own horses.

[Riot]

The problem with the weights is only a problem because the jockeys say it is.
Like Da Hoss said, where do you draw the line? If you are too big and can't make weight naturally then it is YOUR fault if you resort to flipping, not horse racings.

The jockeys say it is a problem, because they are the ones suffering the permanent adverse health consequences with heart and kidney damage, esophageal erosions, etc. in exchange for a career of any length. They have the same health problems anorexic and bulemic young women do.

It's easy for an 18-year-old to make weight, but a thin-framed adult guy 5' 5" should weigh in at least 125 (still under ideal healthy body condition), but with the muscling needed to ride a horse, the bone-mass needed to support that muscle 135-140 is fair and still quite thin. We ask them to be, what, 110-118 or 120?

I haven't heard of any jockey shortages. As long as countries in South American continue to be 2nd and 3rd world (thus reliable producers of shorter, lighter-framed people due to decades of impoverished health and nutritional conditions), we will be able to get short, thin, lightweight kids trained ride racehorses.

In the end the horses will pay the price.

What top weights do you think fair (safe) for 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds? The current weight allowances?

In your experience is it true, or just impression from legend, that average weights horses in the handicap division are asked to carry have lowered over the last 50 years?

[fpsoxfan]

Lukas is quite outspoken on several issues and he is mostly likely the Bobby Knight of horse racing, but I certainly don't see that as a bad thing. Hoss brings up a point that many people seem to forget, many of the great owners he's saddled for have passed away. Sure is he winning at a rate that he once did?
The answer is no. But would I have him train a horse that I owned?
No question about it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The jockeys say it is a problem, because they are the ones suffering the permanent adverse health consequences with heart and kidney damage, esophageal erosions, etc. in exchange for a career of any length. They have the same health problems anorexic and bulemic young women do.

If you are too big and need to flip to make weight than a career change is needed. It is a shame that guys devote themselves to this career at a young age and grow out of it but that is not the fault of the horse racing industry. It is about personal choices. If you choose to do unhealthy things to yourself in order to keep riding then a look in the mirror is needed. The recent HBO show highlighted the death of Chris Herrell. Herrell died from a heart attack from years of flipping. He also was naturally a 150 lbs guy. Do you think raising the weight scale 2 pounds would have done anything for him?

The weight scale has been raised especially at the bottom of the scale. There is not a shortage of jockeys. No one forces anyone to be a jockey. The fact that people have gotten bigger over the years is a moot point.

The fact is that raising the scale a few pounds will not do a thing except make it easier for heavier people to try to ride. Bulemia is a disease and very few jockeys will just stop if the scale was raised a few pounds. The same problems will exist, nothing will change.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

What top weights do you think fair (safe) for 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds? The current weight allowances?

In your experience is it true, or just impression from legend, that average weights horses in the handicap division are asked to carry have lowered over the last 50 years?

There is no handicap division anymore.

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If you are too big and need to flip to make weight than a career change is needed. It is a shame that guys devote themselves to this career at a young age and grow out of it but that is not the fault of the horse racing industry. It is about personal choices. If you choose to do unhealthy things to yourself in order to keep riding then a look in the mirror is needed. The recent HBO show highlighted the death of Chris Herrell. Herrell died from a heart attack from years of flipping. He also was naturally a 150 lbs guy. Do you think raising the weight scale 2 pounds would have done anything for him?

The weight scale has been raised especially at the bottom of the scale. There is not a shortage of jockeys. No one forces anyone to be a jockey. The fact that people have gotten bigger over the years is a moot point.

The fact is that raising the scale a few pounds will not do a thing except make it easier for heavier people to try to ride. Bulemia is a disease and very few jockeys will just stop if the scale was raised a few pounds. The same problems will exist, nothing will change.

When I read the details of the things that Antley did on a daily basis to make weight later in his career, it was quite painful to me. I wish he could have realized it was over for him as a jockey, but that's easy for me to say. It's the only thing he ever wanted to do from the time he was 12 yrs. old. He was quite adept at playing the stock market and could still be around to enjoy his wife and child, if only he could have walked away. I think he was special on a horses back, even though he carried many demons of his own. One of Antleys Doctors said "trainers love him for his ride, but hate his offtrack troubles." Sounds like a horrible spot for a person to be in.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

There is no penalty for success, but isn't it a bit hypocritical that Lukas seems to suffer the backlash of people who are jealous of his success? What prominent owners has he lost? Bob Lewis passes away, so did the Saudi Prince and Overbrook has seemingly cut down the amount of horses they are racing. Yeah his numbers have declined, it's hard to stay on top for that long. People have real short memories. The guy won 6 straight triple crown races from '94-'96. That's not an easy feat. I'll trust his opinions on jocks, his career speaks for itslef.

padua yanked a ton of horses from him, im not denyin what the guy did in the past but his better years have been behind him for quite sometime now

[Riot]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You keep ignoring a pretty big part of this. Say the weights are raised to 120-130. What do you propose we tell the people that are normally 140-150 pounds that are now getting in the sweat boxes and flipping? They'll be trying to make the weight and eventually I'm sure we'll be hearing again about how unfair the weights are. At what weight will it end? If you have to resort to practices that are life threatening to you, maybe you're too big to be a jock.

Right now a good number of our jockeys have brittle, thin bones (chronic malnutrition), esophageal varicies or bleeding from chronic heaving, permanent heart and kidney damage and electrolyte imbalances (especially calcium, potassium) from extreme dieting and the chronic abuse of diuretics and purgatives, etc.

Maybe only a very few of them should be riding in the afternoons right now anyway? The naturally smaller young apprentices and young journeymen that stay very small - they can ride for a few years, and as they enter their mid-twenties and start accumulating too much weight they should quit?

As you move from the current extreme edge of the bell curve (where only 1-2% of the population is a certain size, and everyone but young apprentices has to abuse their bodies to make weight) towards the middle a few pounds, you'll have a greater population able to hold a certain weight - from above and below that point on the bell curve - without having to physically abusing themselves by bulemia, cocaine, sweatboxes, lasix and other diuretic and purgative abuse, etc.

The population in the US has been getting taller over the past century, so the available population for that extreme side of the bell curve has been getting smaller and smaller. Yet we still want people that fit into that size limitation from a century ago (I think NY has raised their weights a few years back) and now we can rarely find people of that small size in the US, we have to get them from countries that are, health and nutrition-wise, still a century behind us.

"Where will it end" is the most important question, because over the same time period horses have been getting faster, meaning lighter in bone, etc - how much weight can the horses of today be asked to safely carry? Not much more than they are now, I think.