How do you.....

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

As for Easy Goer and Sunday Silence, how great either of them were is up for debate. But I'd bet 4/5 that Easy Goer would be in that top five conversation if there would have been no Sunday Silence because of his record. And I don't think either of them was as good as Java Gold or Smarty Jones. At 10f, I'd grudgingly have to give them the edge over KG but at 7f or 8f, I'll agree with what McCarron said; that they wouldn't catch him. Even at 9f, it might be tough if there wasn't anything up there to keep him company.

Are you:
a) joking
b) intentionally trying to piss me off
c) stoned
or
d) out of your mind?

[blackthroatedwind]

I'm not knocking Smarty Jones for his nice win in the Derby but the wet track prevented anyone else from running a step. Yeah, it's a knock on them, and a credit to Smarty Jones, but that was far from a truly run race.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Without question. But, I also believe he was one of the most talented horses I have ever seen. Unfortunately, he never got a fair chance to show it. Shocking that Ed Sexton wasn't able to prolong his career.

i agree with you on this as well. i thought bellamy roads wood was an astounding performance. some would say what did he do after-but his race before the wood was awesome as well. then he was injured in the derby, but then came back and showed tremendous ability and willingness in the travers. made we wish for more.
such a shame that he was unable to come back after that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Oaklawnfan

The debute of an overnight stakes at Oaklawn called "The Smarty Jones" is scheduled for Monday 1/21. They will be handing out Smarty Jones bobble horses to those in attendance. Regular fans of this meet will remember a lot of horses who came through Hot Springs on their three year old campaign, but probably none will be more remembered than Smarty. John Servis won a lot of fans too with how he made himself accessible to the media and the fans. Hopefully some day he'll get another shot. Stew, oh well, Stew is Stew. I must agree that his best win was the Preakness.

This promotion pales in comparison to the opening day 50 cent corned beef sandwiches...

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Damascus raced in plenty of events with seemingly strong paces, which is not unusual, but in only four of his races did he run with an entrymate who acted as a rabbit (one of which he finished second). In 18 of his 21 wins, he did not have a rabbit.

When he did his form seemed to elevate.

Dominating Dr. Fager and winning the Travers by a pole in a jog.

But - I know you know that.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by miraja2

1) Barbaro
2) Curlin
3) Smarty Jones
4) Afleet Alex
5) Last and least....Bernardini.

I don't think Smarty and Alex could have got Bernie out of a jog.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by VOL JACK

I don't think Smarty and Alex could have got Bernie out of a jog.

If I remember correctly, Smarty's top lifetime BSF was a 118, a number that I am pretty sure Bernardini never reached. In the race he posted that 118 he blew away RH10, Eddington, Borrego, and Lion Heart....4 horses that are probably better than any horse Bernardini ever faced - except of course for Invasor who beat him.
If people think that Bernardini was better than Smarty.....fine. He was certainly a quality colt. But to say that Smarty couldn't "have got Bernie out of a jog" again demonstrates that despite Bernardini's considerable talent, he is probably the most overrated horse in quite some time.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If I remember correctly, Smarty's top lifetime BSF was a 118, a number that I am pretty sure Bernardini never reached. In the race he posted that 118 he blew away RH10, Eddington, Borrego, and Lion Heart....4 horses that are probably better than any horse Bernardini ever faced - except of course for Invasor who beat him.
If people think that Bernardini was better than Smarty.....fine. He was certainly a quality colt. But to say that Smarty couldn't "have got Bernie out of a jog" again demonstrates that despite Bernardini's considerable talent, he is probably the most overrated horse in quite some time.

I would take Premium Tap - and perhaps even Lawyer Ron over Eddington, Borrego and Lion Heart.

And while I agree that the Smarty Jones who showed up in the Preakness would have probably beaten Bernardini in any career race - I think he's far from the most overrated horse in quite some time.

No one really ever exposed Bernardini - or beat him in a vert authentic fashion - atleast in my judgement, he had enough of a trip in the BC Classic to make that an inconclusive win for Invasor. Bernardini also has more than his fair share of detractors - though they all seemed to not reveal themselves until he finally lost...and did so in what might have been his career best effort.

I think Bernardini was on a road heading to being an all-time overrated horse - however, his very good loss in the Classic changed all that. He really got downgraded by a lot of people for a very good performance that was certainly no worse than any of his others.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by miraja2

If I remember correctly, Smarty's top lifetime BSF was a 118, a number that I am pretty sure Bernardini never reached. In the race he posted that 118 he blew away RH10, Eddington, Borrego, and Lion Heart....4 horses that are probably better than any horse Bernardini ever faced - except of course for Invasor who beat him.
If people think that Bernardini was better than Smarty.....fine. He was certainly a quality colt. But to say that Smarty couldn't "have got Bernie out of a jog" again demonstrates that despite Bernardini's considerable talent, he is probably the most overrated horse in quite some time.

I know, they were both very talented colts. I think that if they ever faced off Smarty wouldn't like it that much. It is stretching it a little saying that he couldn't get Bernie out of a jog. Forgive me, I've been watching the debates, and I can't help myself from stretching the truth

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

DrugS, how would you rank them?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Because I don't want to type up a million words saying you can't really learn anything by rating them....so rating them really doesn't matter - I will give in and do so.

Curlin's career is still unfinished - and when you look at what is out there in the older male division now - he's got a very easy road to #1 on everyones list of these if he stays sound. I will rate him though as if he's been retired today...and not account for what he might do later on.

#1 Smarty Jones (really - almost nothing seperates these five horses in a rating system. Especially the top 3. His Preakness win was awesome. His Rebel win was strong. His Belmont Stakes effort was massively better than looked. I wasn't a big fan of his - but he was a very good 2yo, excellent 3yo, he had his huge race, and where was his bad race?)

#2 Curlin (He was always the better horse than Street Sense and Hard Spun, but as an immature type in a race run as the Derby was - he wasn't going to show it. Won the Preakness as a lightly raced horse despite getting outtripped. Finished off 3yo season VERY strong. Doesn't corner well, isn't very effective picking through the pack, thus prone to needing wide trips)

#3 Bernardini (he lossed his debut sprinting - A. P. Indy's don't do six furlongs well. After that, it was a steady diet of one impressive race followed by another slightly more impressive race - and that trend concluded with his better than looked 2nd in the Classic. A good case could be made for #1. However, all of his wins came with soft trips in soft fields.)

#4 Afleet Alex (He was the star of a weak triple crown series - even though his best game naturally was probably elongated sprints. Great training job. Very underrated early season 2yo. His win in the Sanford was outstanding.)

#5 Barbaro (he easily was cut out to be the kind of horse that could top this list. I'm rating based on what he did though - and not on a projection as to what he could have done)

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The word 'great' was tossed around with all of the following, how would you rank them?

Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Bernardini, Barbaro or Curlin?

Barbaro, Curlin, Smarty, Bernardini, Alex

IMO Barbaro was the only one in that group who had a chance to be considered great. We obviously didn't get to see his warts but he was so good on both surfaces that he would have had a huge career. I am probably giving too much credit to Curlin because he improved so dramatically while the rest of his classmates seemed to stay in place. Right now he probably looks better to me than he really is. Smarty was a very nice horse and I could see him ahead of Curlin. He always fired which I think is a mark of a great horse. Bernardini's best race that I saw was the loss to Invasor. His Preakness was visually impressive with that big move in the turn but does he even win that if Barbaro duels him down the stretch? Perhaps thats what I can't get over and I don't give him enough credit. Alex was a nice horse but a notch below the others.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Are you:
a) joking
b) intentionally trying to piss me off
c) stoned
or
d) out of your mind?

Why should one person's opinion piss you off? Yours doesn't bother me in the least bit and mine shouldn't bother you. I don't think any of the choices fit. I'm not one that believes that horses should be rated only by what they do at the classic distances. Since something like 75-80% of the races run in this country are sprints and miles, those are important races too. Chris McCarron rode Sunday Silence and he rode against Easy Goer and he was quoted as saying that up to a mile, they wouldn't catch KG. That's not insignificant in my mind. Even so, don't be pissed off. It's only one person's opinion.

My ranking of the five Sightseek asked about would be:
1. Smarty Jones (I thought his best race was the Belmont)
2. Bernardini (showed what people believed was brilliance all year; confirmed it in the BC Classic)
3. Curlin (much the same as Bernardini but I think he needs to be asked more to do things that the others did more naturally, if that makes any sense)
4. Afleet Alex (versatile enough to run 1:09 and change and also win at 12f just three months later)
5. Barbaro (dominated the Derby but his other dirt races weren't anywhere near what the rest of these did on multiple occassions)

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Why should one person's opinion piss you off? Yours doesn't bother me in the least bit and mine shouldn't bother you. I don't think any of the choices fit. I'm not one that believes that horses should be rated only by what they do at the classic distances. Since something like 75-80% of the races run in this country are sprints and miles, those are important races too. Chris McCarron rode Sunday Silence and he rode against Easy Goer and he was quoted as saying that up to a mile, they wouldn't catch KG. That's not insignificant in my mind. Even so, don't be pissed off. It's only one person's opinion.

My ranking of the five Sightseek asked about would be:
1. Smarty Jones (I thought his best race was the Belmont)
2. Bernardini (showed what people believed was brilliance all year; confirmed it in the BC Classic)
3. Curlin (much the same as Bernardini but I think he needs to be asked more to do things that the others did more naturally, if that makes any sense)
4. Afleet Alex (versatile enough to run 1:09 and change and also win at 12f just three months later)
5. Barbaro (dominated the Derby but his other dirt races weren't anywhere near what the rest of these did on multiple occassions)

I wasn't actually pissed off, just trying for a bit of humor, and if you are implying that I "believe that horses should be rated only by what they do at the classic distances," believe me you are quite mistaken.
You, however, just changed the argument right in the middle. The post of yours I was responding too had nothing at all to do with KG. It said you thought Easy Goer and Sunday Silence were not as good as Smarty Jones and Java Gold. To me, that is just nonsense.
If you can find some way to explain that one to me in a way that makes sense....I'll be shocked.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I would take Premium Tap - and perhaps even Lawyer Ron over Eddington, Borrego and Lion Heart.
And while I agree that the Smarty Jones who showed up in the Preakness would have probably beaten Bernardini in any career race - I think he's far from the most overrated horse in quite some time.

No one really ever exposed Bernardini - or beat him in a vert authentic fashion - atleast in my judgement, he had enough of a trip in the BC Classic to make that an inconclusive win for Invasor. Bernardini also has more than his fair share of detractors - though they all seemed to not reveal themselves until he finally lost...and did so in what might have been his career best effort.

I think Bernardini was on a road heading to being an all-time overrated horse - however, his very good loss in the Classic changed all that. He really got downgraded by a lot of people for a very good performance that was certainly no worse than any of his others.

You are absolutely right about Premium Tap. I forgot about him because I was just thinking about the races Bernardini won. As for Lawyer Ron, I think the 2006 version of Lawyer Ron...especially at 10f, was average at best.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

5. Barbaro (dominated the Derby but his other dirt races weren't anywhere near what the rest of these did on multiple occassions)

I agree. One race doesn't make a career, and while maybe he would have proven best of the lot, based on accomplishment I should have rated him 5th as well.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of those five - only Afleet Alex has so far managed to hit the double digit mark in career starts.

While Curlin isn't yet retired - not a single one of those five have so much as started in a race a year from the day of their debut.

Of those five - none have managed to win a Horse of the Year title - though Curlin will in a few weeks - and he will do so in one of the sadest years of recent memory for the older male division.

Candy Ride obviously never won a Triple Crown race - but his career would fit very well with those five otherwise.

Obviously a spectacular talent - but one with a very sexy resume if you get past the fact he never won a Championship and was very lightly raced.

Retiring undefeated and as a two surface sensation.

* Turf: winning two Group 1 turf races in South America by tremendous margins in big fields - setting a world record in one of those wins. In his only American turf start - he won a Grade 2 stake - the 2nd place finisher won a Grade 1 by 5 lengths in course record time next out.

* Dirt: Setting a track record in a 123 Beyer Pacific Classic win with Krone up - where Bailey was allowed to get Medeglia D' Oro a cozy lead and the favorable trip - but he just got drowned by a much better horse that day. A future Japan Cup Dirt winner and a two-time Big Cap winner a distant 3rd and 4th.

Barbaro also won six times in his life, 3 on grass, 3 on dirt, without ever really losing. However, I believe Barbaro compares very unfavorably with Candy Ride.

In Barbaro's case -

Dirt: he only has one big race on dirt. the Kentucky Derby. He got a dream trip in that Derby, while his two main rivals in the betting (the subsequntly awful Sweetnorthernsaint & Brother Derek) had awful trips in very poor showings. Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer made the Tri in that race. Inspite of the perfect stalking trip - Barbaro's Beyer was 111 - only two points above par for the avg winning Derby figure - and 3 points below Funny Cide's similar trip Preakness figure! His other two dirt wins - he had future bad claimer Great Point close to him...and he won a stretch duel with Sharp Humor.

Turf: While he had the look of a future can't miss superstar as a turf horse, only one of his three turf wins was a Graded Stake - a 3 3/4 length Grade 3 Stakes win over Wise River.

Out of the five horses you mentioned - I'd probably say the best performance ever turned in was Smarty Jones' in his Preakness win. Very slightly over Curlin's Breeders Cup Classic win and Bernardini's Classic 2nd place.

I forget about Candy Ride all of the time because we saw so little of him, but boy was that Pacific Classic awesome.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

1. Smarty Jones (I thought his best race was the Belmont)

Me too.

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It also helps to overcome adversity at a very high level.....like Seattle Slew in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and Ghostzapper when he was carried out 15 paths by Saint Liam in the Woodward.

The ability to win at a very high level when things don't go your own way.

Was Ouija Board "Great"? What about Makybe Diva?