Andy Beyer, Dutrow, DRF

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

it has?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

A testing regiment similar to what is used in Cycling (with just as stiff penalties) would go a long way in deterring a lot of this behavior.

A blood chemisty work up on all detained horses with baseline markers and established thresholds for all elements that impact performance (eg. red blood cell count, etc).

I'm not a chemist or a vet, and do not even know if this would translate to horses, but they do this in Cycling- For instance if their red blood cell count is elevated over the threshold, they are guilty - period. It doesn't matter what they "used" to get there as there obviously not test for it anyway.

We do similar tests for Total CO2 (milkshaking) by testing for the gas volume in solution in the blood - not the level of bicarbonate soda.

but like beyer said, there needs to be some real teeth involved in whatever 'punishment' is handed out to these trainers when they get caught with a positive.
hell, many trainers call a suspension a much needed vacation. that's a hell of a mindset.
but hey....a small fine, a slap on the wrist, get nominated for an eclipse...or even win one-like i heard on the show, what reason is there not to cheat? it's so easy, and rewarding. it's obscene.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

Ditto

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

The point on top of your head has been made

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Bill Mott moved Cigar up BIG TIME off Alex Hassinger,

Yeah, he moved him up by switching him from the turf to the dirt.

Cigar sucked on the turf for Mott.... and ran a huge dirt race for Hassinger before he moved him to the turf and never let him see the dirt again.

Why is it Mott's fault that Hassinger moved Cigar off of the turf after his explosive 96 Beyer MSW win in start #2 - earning almost the same Beyer that 3yo Champion Prarie Bayou did in the Preakness that same weekend.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Actually, I can only recall one person on message boards referring to him as Ricky.

Makes me wonder.

0000000000000000

[Riot]

Ah, yeah you do. Anytime a discussion comes up involving trainers, and drugs you blindly defend trainers. I'm not making it up. Take a look at the discussions that have happened here.

Naw. I just refuse to jump on the "I say, therefor he's guilty" bandbox.

It's not that I don't like your opinion, you're giving yourself way too much credit. I just don't care. Like i don't care that you're a vet. I know why you defend these guys, and I called you on it.

You don't have a clue about me, so your calling me a cheat in my professional life shows how remarkably without validity much of what you have to say is.

But, to deny that these guys, who perform miracles and have had numerous issues with drugs in the past aren't doing something to get an edge makes you look silly.

So? My opinion isn't weighted by peer pressure. Sorry.

Do I trust Dutrow? See post #12

(Oh, yeah - btw, please don't assume, overspeak or just guess at what my opinion is)

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Speaking of shady trainers saying silly things.....

Here's a quote from the SA stable notes featuring Monsieur Cobra Venom's take on handicapping the Super Bowl.

Trainer Patrick Biancone—“The Cardinals have a better defense, and I like the ‘under.’”

[ELA]

FYI -- "Letter to the Editor" commentary.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/101397.html


Letters to the Editor
By DRF Readers
Debate detracts from greater story of a horse on the rise

I was very disappointed to see Mr. Richard Dutrow's response to Andrew Beyer's Jan. 28 column in the Racing Form ("Dutrow expresses ire over column," Jan. 31).

Reading his comments, it seems as though he is lost in the forest and can't see the trees. When This Ones for Phil was purchased for six figures two and half months ago, he was already a stakes winner on the dirt and stakes-placed on the turf, with earnings of almost $100,000. (Considering the cut in the purses at Calder this past meeting, that was a feat in itself.)

Mr. Dutrow should have considered himself lucky, having a proven and still-upcoming young horse added to the barn. As the horse is now a maturing 3-year-old, it didn't seem like a total shock that he ran a terrific race on Sunshine Millions Day. The fact that he returned only a $25.40 public mutuel attested to that fact, too. He certainly had a dream trip (as noted by Dutrow himself) and a brilliant ride from Edgar Prado.

It is a shame that the focus now seems to be on Dutrow and not a nice up-and-coming horse. Calder continuously has showcased many such stars (Big Drama, In Summation, Blazing Sword, and Chatter Chatter, to name a few). I also think that it is a shame the two and a half months that had passed since This Ones for Phil left my barn was not enough time to have the name and colors of the new owner, Paul Pompa Jr., in the program. Time would be better devoted to the horse, This Ones for Phil, and his new owner in the risky business of horse racing, where any race can be the last - and all the knocking be put aside.

Kathleen O'Connell - Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Scav

M Its a Bird couldn't win a race at Arlington Park last year and now he is winning 500k races. I don't know what he is doing, but whatever he is doing, it works.

Now that one isn't hard: hates Poly. Don't let the purse fool you: this race is a gift to Florida/Cal breeders and the people who buy them and could have been run for a fifth of the purse and attracted the same horses.

With MA, maybe Wolfson fixed the horse's feet (there are a lot of farriers who still cut toe-long, heel-short), or his teeth, or his stomach (undiagnosed ulcers) or his brain. Maybe the horse needed more conditioning between races, or less. There are so many things that can effect a horse's performance that aren't drugs that it can be hard to disentangle the effects.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. )

Incorrect. If you had added 'In the Northern Hemisphere' you would have been right. But down under, he got multiple G1 and Derby winner Naturalism, Queensland Oaks winner Crystal Palace, G1 2yo Anthems, additional G1 winners Ready to Explode and Palace Line (in South Africa, sold as a yearling from Aus). All turf runners.

[robfla]

Palace Music sired 32 stakes winners from 15 crops, and was leading sire by progeny earnings in 1996.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I listened to the archived ATR interview with Wolfson. I loved his account of how Laz Barrera trained a sprinter, Bold Forbes, "to win the Belmont Stakes in a walk." 'Forbes held a large lead throughout the race, and at the top of the stretch had a six-length lead; he held on to win by a neck.

So, in a manner of speaking, he might have been correct, but I don't think he was playing semantics with "win[ning] in a walk."

Bold Forbes had a lot of natural speed, like his forebear Bold Ruler, but it did not mean he was deficient in other departments; he HAD won the Kentucky Derby on the lead with fast fractions. (And Bold Ruler beat Round Table and Gallant Man over 10f carrying 130 lbs in the fall.) He was the only horse in that Belmont field who as a SW at the time and only one other of the field members ever did win a stakes. Forbsie won the Belmont on grit and class and the effort cooked him; he never regained his earlier form after that race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Now that one isn't hard: hates Poly.

Funny - he seemed to hate all surfaces for Pletcher. Especially dirt. Heck, when Larry Pilloti trained him, he got beat in a lifetime condition claiming race on dirt.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Funny - he seemed to hate all surfaces for Pletcher. Especially dirt. Heck, when Larry Pilloti trained him, he got beat in a lifetime condition claiming race on dirt.

I wasn't even going to respond to her ridiculousness.

[sumitas]

I can't imagine Pletcher not knowing surfaces . The man is a great trainer .

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

I can't imagine Pletcher not knowing surfaces . The man is a great trainer .

What makes you think Todd Pletcher ever even saw Ikigai? Ever? Do you think Pletcher spends a great deal of time overseeing his Chicago string? No one has brought up that a lot of horses that have 'Trained by Todd Pletcher' attached to them are trained by him in name only. Pletcher is indeed great, but even he is hard-pressed to lay hands and eyes on the 300 horses in the 5-6 venues that have his name on the shed. They're being trained by his assistants in the Pletcher "program" method. Every horse treated more or less the same. So when one or 20 of them fall through the cracks because they didn't respond to the "program" and needed singular attention, don't be so dumbfounded.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Kasept

What makes you think Todd Pletcher ever even saw Ikigai? Ever? Do you think Pletcher spends a great deal of time overseeing his Chicago string?

Ah, Steve....

Ikigai was never in Chicago at any point in his career.

I also assume Pletcher probably did see him ... as he was training regularly at Churchill all through April and May .. and he raced there in May or June.

You're confusing Ikigai with another horse your alchemist friend moved way up.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by robfla

Palace Music sired 32 stakes winners from 15 crops, and was leading sire by progeny earnings in 1996.

Yeah with Cigar being 90% of that?

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah with Cigar being 90% of that?

probably closer to 99.9% of that.