Dear Right...

Originally Posted by Riot

Wind farms have some of their own serious concerns regarding environmental impact (birds, bats, etc). Yes, I find them ugly, btw.

I agree, we need far less coal dependency. And the end result of nuclear power is steam.

The bats and birds, shifting wind patterns are minor imo compared to coal.

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not. he said other issues would be pushed to the back burner, that now was the time to put our focus on the economy. and creating more expense right now in energy is not a way to help our economy. people are finally getting a breather in that area (the one bright spot right now) and he wants to pull that rug out from under them? makes almost as much sense as choosing now to inform folks that medicare and medicaid are going to lose funding when more than ever need it, so that they can put that money towards a future attempt at universal health care.

He said that green (whatever that actually means) and the economy would go hand in hand.
Remember the insulating federal buildings etc... He stated it would create jobs now,
and be a benefit for the future.

[Danzig]

he's going to save the economy by adding insulation to federal buildings? lol no, i'm joking. i'm sure there's more to it then that. what i'm talking about tho are his suggestions at selling carbon-the cap and trade deal. it just seems the more he talks, the lower the dow goes, and the higher the unemployment. and the treasury dept is still understaffed. reminds me of when someone opens a restaurant-the food might be good, but you'll never know because the service is terrible.

Originally Posted by Danzig

he's going to save the economy by adding insulation to federal buildings? lol no, i'm joking. i'm sure there's more to it then that. what i'm talking about tho are his suggestions at selling carbon-the cap and trade deal. it just seems the more he talks, the lower the dow goes, and the higher the unemployment. and the treasury dept is still understaffed. reminds me of when someone opens a restaurant-the food might be good, but you'll never know because the service is terrible.

The Dow wants some sort of certainty.
There is nothing certain about his plan.
Or anyone elses I have heard of.

The thing that strikes me as interesting is that
apparently this all has to happen quickly. I read
and hear that we were (under Bush), and still are very close to
having the flow of credit shut down. But other things I read
say we dont have to move so fast. Z I really believe we are
in unknown territory. And I have really lost some respect
for the semi-science of economic rules. What I have gained
is a healthy respect for the importance of consumer confidence.

Meanwhile... what was going to be money for my daughter and
the future has lost a stunning amount of value % wise. Quite amazing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

If China does not change their ways it will present us with
the perfect example of what happens when industry runs
awry. They are basically poisoning themselves. Their life
expectancy has gone down and they are richer. Imagine that.

This is why Obama has stated he wants to do this now. It probably
would have gone better when gas was > 4.00 but it will eventually go
back. He believes this is the time to make the switch. Its a gamble.

China is not an example in any way shape or form for us. The differences are far too great but I can tell you that when their economy feels more pain they wont be implementing environmental programs. So all our attempts to stop or slow global warming are pretty moot anyway if the Chinese and other countires dont follow suit. Especially since there is no real live proof that the new policies will ever have any effect.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Actually the studies show the "kill" rate for the WT Farm is far far less than Auto strikes. It's all part of the enviromental impact study....

Since when isnt death part of the environmental process?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

He said that green (whatever that actually means) and the economy would go hand in hand.
Remember the insulating federal buildings etc... He stated it would create jobs now,
and be a benefit for the future.

It wont create as nearly many jobs as higher energy prices will eliminate. It will hurt the economy. This is like the first day of Economics 101.

Exactly how many jobs does a wind farm create anyway? I dont know much about them but I did see a report that 90% of alternate energy equipment is produced overseas.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

China is not an example in any way shape or form for us.

Oh hell yes they are. They have poisoned their air and rivers.
They are carrying out an environmental experiment for us.
We can learn a heck of a lot when they attempt to correct
their problems. Some of their destruction will be long term.
Some will not. We should be on this studying this like flies on
horse sh it.

I am assuming that flies study horse crap.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It wont create as nearly many jobs as higher energy prices will eliminate. It will hurt the economy. This is like the first day of Economics 101.

Exactly how many jobs does a wind farm create anyway? I dont know much about them but I did see a report that 90% of alternate energy equipment is produced overseas.

GE is now into wind production but your are correct.
The Europeans are major manufacturers right NOW.

It was far more than wind farms.
Mass transit on and on....
This city could use mass transit.

And I am not saying it will work. Dont shoot the messenger.
I am relaying what I have read and heard. You think I just
make this crap up? I wish I had the ability to do so.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Oh hell yes they are. They have poisoned their air and rivers.
They are carrying out an environmental experiment for us.
We can learn a heck of a lot when they attempt to correct
their problems. Some of their destruction will be long term.
Some will not. We should be on this studying this like flies on
horse sh it.

I am assuming that flies study horse crap.

Listen, despite the lies of the environmental lobby the environment in the US is far better than most nations and China is in a league of their own. It is like you telling your kids not to be mass murders when they grow up. Comparing us and them is stupid. Thinkng they will change is even stupider.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

GE is now into wind production but your are correct.
The Europeans are major manufacturers right NOW.

It was far more than wind farms.
Mass transit on and on....
This city could use mass transit.

And I am not saying it will work. Dont shoot the messenger.
I am relaying what I have read and heard.

GE is in a shaky position due to its financial wing. If we can buy it cheaper from overseas then why should we make it here/ To create jobs? But causing the price of energy to dramatically spike hurt all of us and manufacturing these items creates few jobs. That is a bad tradeoff. Of course with the unions calling the shots now the price increases will be even greater.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Listen, despite the lies of the environmental lobby the environment in the US is far better than most nations and China is in a league of their own. It is like you telling your kids not to be mass murders when they grow up. Comparing us and them is stupid. Thinkng they will change is even stupider.

Of course it is.


But by God we had better have people over there
studying exactly what goes on because the will have
to try and fix it. They will be FORCED to. They will have
massive water shortages, and they already have trouble
breathing their air. We had better get that info.
This is what WE do very well.

If China were smart they would make us apart of the
cleanup.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

GE is in a shaky position due to its financial wing. If we can buy it cheaper from overseas then why should we make it here/ To create jobs? But causing the price of energy to dramatically spike hurt all of us and manufacturing these items creates few jobs. That is a bad tradeoff. Of course with the unions calling the shots now the price increases will be even greater.

It is cheaper NOW.
But the transportation costs of these things is enormous.
You should see what it takes to transport the "wings".
They are huge. And bringing them over by boat...
The wings are assembled as a whole and transported as such.
They are huge and very long. Not like transporting cars.
When they get here they are as long as two and a half 18 wheelers.
it is quite a sight to see them on the highway. They have to take apart
the 18 wheelers to transport them.

But I digress...


And I know nothing about the unions killing GE so you will have to
inform me.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by pgardn

It is cheaper NOW.
But the transportation costs of these things is enormous.
You should see what it takes to transport the "wings".
They are huge. And bringing them over by boat...
The wings are assembled as a whole and transported as such.
They are huge and very long. Not like transporting cars.
When they get here they are as long as two and a half 18 wheelers.
it is quite a sight to see them on the highway. They have to take apart
the 18 wheelers to transport them.

But I digress...


And I know nothing about the unions killing GE so you will have to
inform me.

Most of the major european manufacturers have opened blade manufacturing facilities in the US - they also are now sourcing the towers here in the US. But you are right - even shipping within the US is an issue and does add significant cost.

[geeker2]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Since when isnt death part of the environmental process?

when it only causes genetic mutation?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by geeker2

when it only causes genetic mutation?

Aren't genetic mutations part of the process of nature?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pgardn

The bats and birds, shifting wind patterns are minor imo compared to coal.

Windfarms kill alot of bats and birds. The windfarm they are putting off the northeast coast is in the middle of major migratory bird routes.

Just saying one has to be careful of the environmental impact of windfarms, too. I do like wind power. Alot.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Most of the major european manufacturers have opened blade manufacturing facilities in the US - they also are now sourcing the towers here in the US. But you are right - even shipping within the US is an issue and does add significant cost.

Which is why I've owned stock in a Euro energy corp for over a year.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Riot

Windfarms kill alot of bats and birds. The windfarm they are putting off the northeast coast is in the middle of major migratory bird routes.

Just saying one has to be careful of the environmental impact of windfarms, too. I do like wind power. Alot.

i had a mockingbird outside my window for close to 5 weeks last spring.

had i known of the option, i'd have built a windfarm.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It wont create as nearly many jobs as higher energy prices will eliminate. It will hurt the economy. This is like the first day of Economics 101.

Exactly how many jobs does a wind farm create anyway? I dont know much about them but I did see a report that 90% of alternate energy equipment is produced overseas.

there's a place right here in arkansas that builds those windmills. they're supposed to be expanding their business, but that was last summer/fall that i read that. who knows now?
anyone thinking of learning a new career should look into nursing or engineering. those fields are still screaming for people right now.