HOTY: If Zenyatta wins the Classic...

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

No one can say Zenyatta can beat RA on dirt because the match up will never happen!!!!!

How quickly people forget RA's accomplishments

People only remember the last thing to happen. I am not saying Zenyatta wouldn't be a worthy HOY, but it's a bit presumptuous to assume Zenyatta would thump RA on dirt based off one dirt race.

RA wants no part of a 1 1/4 mile race, the only way she will win at 1 1/4 against top notch horse is if she steals it on the front end. That isnt going to happen.

NO way could RA lay back and win No matter what the pace is and Zenyatta has done just that.

14 times she went to post any did just what it took to win, if they went 5 lenghts faster she would of won.

Zenyatta got 1 to 3 pounds where RA got 5 and just hung on to win.

Zenyatta closed the final 1/4 in 22 and change to overhaul this years Classic field and they were not backing up.

I would of liked to have seen her run at Churchill Downs, but it rained and her owners didn't want to take the chance.

Jess Jackson stayed at home and played it safe, even though RA has shown she will run on synthetics.

Jerry Moss said today that Zenyatta was done racing after what was her biggest highlight and when asked if he thought she should be horse of the year he said "She is his horse of the year and thats all that counts to him and his wife." Pure Class!

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

RA wants no part of a 1 1/4 mile race, the only way she will win at 1 1/4 against top notch horse is if she steals it on the front end. That isnt going to happen.

NO way could RA lay back and win No matter what the pace is and Zenyatta has done just that.

14 times she went to post any did just what it took to win, if they went 5 lenghts faster she would of won.

Zenyatta got 1 to 3 pounds where RA got 5 and just hung on to win.

Zenyatta closed the final 1/4 in 22 and change to overhaul this years Classic field and they were not backing up.

I would of liked to have seen her run at Churchill Downs, but it rained and her owners didn't want to take the chance.

Jess Jackson stayed at home and played it safe, even though RA has shown she will run on synthetics.

Jerry Moss said today that Zenyatta was done racing after what was her biggest highlight and when asked if he thought she should be horse of the year he said "She is his horse of the year and thats all that counts to him and his wife." Pure Class!

You sound like the folks that call WFAN sports talk radio in NY..If you dare suggest A Rod is great it must mean you are dissing Jeter.. They are both awesome and your guess that Rachel wants no part of 10f's or if she could handle zenyatta on dirt or rubber is just an opinion that will never be able to be justified on the track.. Rachel will get 10f's and currently nothing in the male or female ranks can touch her as Zenyatta is retired. Understand she still has to winter well and come back that isnt always a sure thing

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You sound like the folks that call WFAN sports talk radio in NY..If you dare suggest A Rod is great it must mean you are dissing Jeter.. They are both awesome and your guess that Rachel wants no part of 10f's or if she could handle zenyatta on dirt or rubber is just an opinion that will never be able to be justified on the track.. Rachel will get 10f's and currently nothing in the male or female ranks can touch her as Zenyatta is retired. Understand she still has to winter well and come back that isnt always a sure thing

the great ones rarely drop off between 3 and 4

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

No one can say Zenyatta can beat RA on dirt because the match up will never happen!!!!!

How quickly people forget RA's accomplishments

People only remember the last thing to happen. I am not saying Zenyatta wouldn't be a worthy HOY, but it's a bit presumptuous to assume Zenyatta would thump RA on dirt based off one dirt race.

That is why I posted the link to all of their races above and I only hope whoever does have a vote for this silly award takes the time to absorb both horses' body of work this year.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You sound like the folks that call WFAN sports talk radio in NY..If you dare suggest A Rod is great it must mean you are dissing Jeter.. They are both awesome and your guess that Rachel wants no part of 10f's or if she could handle zenyatta on dirt or rubber is just an opinion that will never be able to be justified on the track.. Rachel will get 10f's and currently nothing in the male or female ranks can touch her as Zenyatta is retired. Understand she still has to winter well and come back that isnt always a sure thing

[citycat]

I think the debate is great for our sport. At least we are in the headlines for something very positive.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Although I respect Jerry Bailey and think he does a great job on TV, I thought he was way off when he said Rachel and co. ducked the tougher spot when they chose the Woodward over the Travers shortly after the Classic.

Bailey doesn't sugarcoat anything, many don't like him because he speaks his mind but I don't know how anyone could think Macho Again and Bullsbay are better than Summer Bird or Quality Road now and then....In my opinion the connections picked the easier spot and laid out the premptive notion if she won she had done enough this year. If Bailey wants to call it 'ducking' I'm 100% behind that notion.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by CSC

Bailey doesn't sugarcoat anything, many don't like him because he speaks his mind but I don't know how anyone could think Macho Again and Bullsbay are better than Summer Bird or Quality Road now and then....In my opinion the connections picked the easier spot and laid out the premptive notion if she won she had done enough this year. If Bailey wants to call it 'ducking' I'm 100% behind that notion.

Oh yea, thats why Jess Jackson bought Rachel to duck horses, thats it I do recall that was the reasoning behind the purchase. I remember JJ saying all year that he wasnt going to run her on synthetics. Zenyatta's connections confirmed she would race in the Classic like 2 weeks before it was run. How is that ducking? His argument holds no water. I commend Jess for taking a stand against synthetics this year, good for him. That surface is 100% rubbish. It made his superstar Curlin look like an average horse why would he do that to her. If I were him as long as I was still breathing and they ran the BC on the rubber and carpet I would purchase the best horse in training on dirt that year and hold him or her out of the breeders cup until they learn their lesson about that **** surface.
As far as Bailey goes, him allowing himself to get caught up in the moment with no clear reasoning behind his statements, forgetting all the amazing accomplishments by RA, ALL YEAR LONG and saying they were ducking and anointing Zen HOY immediately after the race has me questioning his sanity.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Oh yea, thats why Jess Jackson bought Rachel to duck horses, thats it I do recall that was the reasoning behind the purchase. I remember JJ saying all year that he wasnt going to run her on synthetics. Zenyatta's connections confirmed she would race in the Classic like 2 weeks before it was run. How is that ducking? His argument holds no water. I commend Jess for taking a stand against synthetics this year, good for him. That surface is 100% rubbish. It made his superstar Curlin look like an average horse why would he do that to her. If I were him as long as I was still breathing and they ran the BC on the rubber and carpet I would purchase the best horse in training on dirt that year and hold him or her out of the breeders cup until they learn their lesson about that **** surface.
As far as Bailey goes, him allowing himself to get caught up in the moment with no clear reasoning behind his statements, forgetting all the amazing accomplishments by RA, ALL YEAR LONG and saying they were ducking and anointing Zen HOY immediately after the race has me questioning his sanity.

He only wants to race her if the conditions overwhelmingly favor her, when the result is not so much in doubt. On the surface yes he raced her in tougher spots, but upon closer examination he didn't campaign in the most challenging spots to make you question the result. It's up to each person to decide if they want to call this a duck or not. But he chose the safest route to pile on the resume.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by CSC

He only wants to race her if the conditions overwhelmingly favor her, when the result is not so much in doubt. On the surface yes he raced her in tougher spots, but upon closer examination he didn't campaign in the most challenging spots to make you question the result. It's up to each person to decide if they want to call this a duck or not. But he chose the safest route to pile on the resume.

If going the safest route is racing her against the 3yr old boys for the most part after buying her and then stepping her up to older males and racing and beating the horses that ran 1-2 in the grade 1 Whitney a few weeks back on the same surface, then I really don't know what you would consider tougher spots. Oh yea and wasnt she the first filly to win the Woodward? I though so.
Believe me when I tell you that Zenyatta had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with RA not running in the classic PERIOD.......... The decision was set in stone before the purchase was even made. It absolute Tom Foolery to think otherwise

[NTamm1215]

It's funny how everyone's bashing Jess Jackson now for ducking tough spots but that's exactly what the Zenyatta camp did prior to this race. Take that for what it's worth.

It really boils down to whether you think the BC supersedes everything else that happens during the year. I don't.

NT

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by CSC

He only wants to race her if the conditions overwhelmingly favor her, when the result is not so much in doubt. On the surface yes he raced her in tougher spots, but upon closer examination he didn't campaign in the most challenging spots to make you question the result. It's up to each person to decide if they want to call this a duck or not. But he chose the safest route to pile on the resume.

He ran her three times against males. How is that not taking the most challenging spots? It wasn't like they shipped her to New York after the purchase and stuck to the Goose-CCOA-Alabama-Beldame route.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I think it’s a close call with regard to who should win horse of the year. There is no doubt that Rachel had an incredible year. Zenyatta, on the other hand is the first filly or mare in history to win the BC Classic. I think that is a very big deal. In addition, she was undefeated this year. With regard to who the better horse is, I think Zenyatta is probably the better horse at 1 ¼ miles. Rachel never ran 1 ¼ miles. The furthest she ever ran was 1 3/16 miles in the Preakness and she was getting very tired at the end of that race. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have won fairly handily. In the Woodward, Rachel was getting very tired and barely held off Macho Again. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have easily won that race. And if Rachel would have been in the BC Classic yesterday, I don’t think she would have beaten Zenyatta. So that’s 3 different races this year, where if they would have faced each other I think Zenyatta would have beaten her.

I think that at 1 ¼ miles, Zenyatta would beat Rachel almost every time unless it was a totally paceless field. If it was a field with no speed, where Rachel got an easy lead in :49, then maybe she would have a chance. And I think Rachel would have a good chance to beat Zenyatta in the slop. We know that Rachel loves the slop. Whether Zenyatta would like the slop is anyone's guess.

On the other hand, I don’t know if Zenyatta could have beaten Rachel in the Ky Oaks. Rachel freaked that day. She loves Churchill. I don't know if Zenyatta could beat her at Churchill in a relatively paceless race. It still is hard to tell just how good Zenyatta is because she always wins so effortlessly. Even yesterday, she wasn’t all out. She broke totally flat-footed and took well over an 1/8th of a mile to switch leads and ended up 15 lengths behind on a :24 1/5 opening quarter. Everything went against her, yet she still won relatively easily. She just does what she needs to do. Once she hits the lead, she pulls herself up. She doesn’t win by 20 lengths like Rachel, so she doesn’t look as spectacular as Rachel. But as spectacular as Rachel looked against easy fields, when she ran in races where the fields were a little tougher and the pace was faster, she barely won. But in fairness to Rachel, she’s still only 3 years old. She’s not even fully mature yet. So I think it’s tough to compare the two horses.

If RA and Zenyatta faced each other tomorrow, I highly doubt Rachel would beat Zenyatta at 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 miles if there was a fairly fast pace and Rachel was close to that pace. When Rachel has been close to fairly fast paces (on fast tracks not sloppy tracks), she has barely held off mediocre horses. Does that prove that Zenyatta is better? Probably, but not necessarily. Maybe Rachel could show a new dimension if she needed to.

[letswastemoney]

The RA camp was ducking synthetics, they weren't hiding from the Classic field.

It would be the equivalent to Cigar ducking a turf race because he's not a turf horse.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

The RA camp was ducking synthetics, they weren't hiding from the Classic field.

It would be the equivalent to Cigar ducking a turf race because he's not a turf horse.

Very well put.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think it’s a close call with regard to who should win horse of the year. There is no doubt that Rachel had an incredible year. Zenyatta, on the other hand is the first filly or mare in history to win the BC Classic. I think that is a very big deal. In addition, she was undefeated this year. With regard to who the better horse is, I think Zenyatta is probably the better horse at 1 ¼ miles. Rachel never ran 1 ¼ miles. The furthest she ever ran was 1 3/16 miles in the Preakness and she was getting very tired at the end of that race. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have won fairly handily. In the Woodward, Rachel was getting very tired and barely held off Macho Again. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have easily won that race. And if Rachel would have been in the BC Classic yesterday, I don’t think she would have beaten Zenyatta. So that’s 3 different races this year, where if they would have faced each other I think Zenyatta would have beaten her.

I think that at 1 ¼ miles, Zenyatta would beat Rachel almost every time unless it was a totally paceless field. If it was a field with no speed, where Rachel got an easy lead in :49, then maybe she would have a chance. And I think Rachel would have a good chance to beat Zenyatta in the slop. We know that Rachel loves the slop. Whether Zenyatta would like the slop is anyone's guess.

On the other hand, I don’t know if Zenyatta could have beaten Rachel in the Ky Oaks. Rachel freaked that day. She loves Churchill. I don't know if Zenyatta could beat her at Churchill in a relatively paceless race. It still is hard to tell just how good Zenyatta is because she always wins so effortlessly. Even yesterday, she wasn’t all out. She broke totally flat-footed and took well over an 1/8th of a mile to switch leads and ended up 15 lengths behind on a :24 1/5 opening quarter. Everything went against her, yet she still won relatively easily. She just does what she needs to do. Once she hits the lead, she pulls herself up. She doesn’t win by 20 lengths like Rachel, so she doesn’t look as spectacular as Rachel. But as spectacular as Rachel looked against easy fields, when she ran in races where the fields were a little tougher and the pace was faster, she barely won. But in fairness to Rachel, she’s still only 3 years old. She’s not even fully mature yet. So I think it’s tough to compare the two horses.

If RA and Zenyatta faced each other tomorrow, I highly doubt Rachel would beat Zenyatta at 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 miles if there was a fairly fast pace and Rachel was close to that pace. When Rachel has been close to fairly fast paces (on fast tracks not sloppy tracks), she has barely held off mediocre horses. Does that prove that Zenyatta is better? Probably, but not necessarily. Maybe Rachel could show a new dimension if she needed to.

100% incorrect. It wasnt even a logical discussion that Zen could beat Rachel at any point during the year. It was unanimous thought that there was no way Zen could catch Rachel in any race. Now months down the line Zen beats a bunch of turf horses and dirt specialists on her own turf and she automatically is better then Rachel now . Remember, when Rachel was running 116 beyers Zen was running 94's and barely beating average filly and mares at best and in one case only winning by a nose.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

He ran her three times against males. How is that not taking the most challenging spots? It wasn't like they shipped her to New York after the purchase and stuck to the Goose-CCOA-Alabama-Beldame route.

I'm sorry but Semantics aside, because I know the RA backers like to keep banging this point of taking on males, she did take the less challenging set of races. A true tougher test would have been to have gone in the Derby rather than Oaks, I'm okay with the Preakness however the Belmont would have been more of a challenge to her, The Travers rather than the Woodward, and deciding to pack it in before the BC and at most the JCGC was extremely premature and certainly not one that screams out challenge and taking risks from a horse that is proclaimed by many as one of the greatest fillies of all time.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kgar311

100% incorrect. It wasnt even a logical discussion that Zen could beat Rachel at any point during the year. It was unanimous thought that there was no way Zen could catch Rachel in any race. Now months down the line Zen beats a bunch of turf horses and dirt specialists on her own turf and she automatically is better then Rachel now . Remember, when Rachel was running 116 beyers Zen was running 94's and barely beating average filly and mares at best and in one case only winning by a nose.

So you don't think Zenyatta would have won the Preakness or the Woodward?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think it’s a close call with regard to who should win horse of the year. There is no doubt that Rachel had an incredible year. Zenyatta, on the other hand is the first filly or mare in history to win the BC Classic. I think that is a very big deal. In addition, she was undefeated this year. With regard to who the better horse is, I think Zenyatta is probably the better horse at 1 ¼ miles. Rachel never ran 1 ¼ miles. The furthest she ever ran was 1 3/16 miles in the Preakness and she was getting very tired at the end of that race. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have won fairly handily. In the Woodward, Rachel was getting very tired and barely held off Macho Again. If Zenyatta was in that field, I think she would have easily won that race. And if Rachel would have been in the BC Classic yesterday, I don’t think she would have beaten Zenyatta. So that’s 3 different races this year, where if they would have faced each other I think Zenyatta would have beaten her.

I think that at 1 ¼ miles, Zenyatta would beat Rachel almost every time unless it was a totally paceless field. If it was a field with no speed, where Rachel got an easy lead in :49, then maybe she would have a chance. And I think Rachel would have a good chance to beat Zenyatta in the slop. We know that Rachel loves the slop. Whether Zenyatta would like the slop is anyone's guess.

On the other hand, I don’t know if Zenyatta could have beaten Rachel in the Ky Oaks. Rachel freaked that day. She loves Churchill. I don't know if Zenyatta could beat her at Churchill in a relatively paceless race. It still is hard to tell just how good Zenyatta is because she always wins so effortlessly. Even yesterday, she wasn’t all out. She broke totally flat-footed and took well over an 1/8th of a mile to switch leads and ended up 15 lengths behind on a :24 1/5 opening quarter. Everything went against her, yet she still won relatively easily. She just does what she needs to do. Once she hits the lead, she pulls herself up. She doesn’t win by 20 lengths like Rachel, so she doesn’t look as spectacular as Rachel. But as spectacular as Rachel looked against easy fields, when she ran in races where the fields were a little tougher and the pace was faster, she barely won. But in fairness to Rachel, she’s still only 3 years old. She’s not even fully mature yet. So I think it’s tough to compare the two horses.

If RA and Zenyatta faced each other tomorrow, I highly doubt Rachel would beat Zenyatta at 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 miles if there was a fairly fast pace and Rachel was close to that pace. When Rachel has been close to fairly fast paces (on fast tracks not sloppy tracks), she has barely held off mediocre horses. Does that prove that Zenyatta is better? Probably, but not necessarily. Maybe Rachel could show a new dimension if she needed to.

For the most part I agree with the theme of your post, well thought out and written, the only thing I disagree on is the 49 fraction part.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm sorry but Semantics aside, because I know the RA backers like to keep banging this point of taking on males, she did take the less challenging set of races. A true tougher test would have been to have gone in the Derby rather than Oaks, I'm okay with the Preakness however the Belmont would have been more of a challenge to her, The Travers rather than the Woodward, and deciding to pack it in before the BC and at most the JCGC was extremely premature and certainly not one that screams out challenge and taking risks in a horse that is proclaimed by many as one of the greatest fillies of all time.

So now you're going to bring up the past connections' decision to not run in the Derby? You're s.hitting all over races like the Preakness, Haskell (where she kicked the s.hit out of your boy), and Woodward. We're not talking about the Milady, Vanity, and Clement L. Hirsch for crying out loud. She ran in traditional, historic races and her connections took chances. You're sitting back critiquing every aspect because it wasn't the route you'd have chosen.

I would be more inclined to vote for Zenyatta as HOY if her connections had done at least one more thing that was ambitious. Sitting in cozy Cali all year long running in garbage races does not an HOY make. They chose to run her on the biggest stage but unfortunately by the time they did there had already been a bigger star.

NT