La Troienne discussion

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

If they retire her it would be a mistake. The main track was hmm awkward.

It certainly didn't favor frontrunners.

Horses on the lead after a half on the main track finished 3rd, 4th, 9th, 2nd (Rachel), 3rd, 8th, 3rd, and 2nd.

Horses to win came from 7th of 8, 3rd of 11, 5th of 10, 3rd of 6, 4th of 5, 4th of 9, 14th of 14, and 2nd of 8.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im not understanding how people are blaming the rider here. What did he do wrong? He sat right off a relatively slow pace and pounced around the turn. What was he supposed to do? She didnt get checked or have anyone traffic problems and he didnt get her into any kind of duel.

Calvin did his job. If she was good enough today, she wins. She wasn't good enough today.

I agree with this.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by philcski

It certainly didn't favor frontrunners.

Horses on the lead after a half on the main track finished 3rd, 4th, 9th, 2nd (Rachel), 3rd, 8th, 3rd, and 2nd.

Horses to win came from 7th of 8, 3rd of 11, 5th of 10, 3rd of 6, 4th of 5, 4th of 9, 14th of 14, and 2nd of 8.

Let's break this down a little further; going by the charts; with top 4 positions at the 1st and 2nd call.

Race 1: 4 horses go at it, the race collapses, and the winner comes from last.
8/4/2/3 --- 7/4/1/3

Race 2: 2 horse duel, winner comes from 4th position, less than 2.5 less behind; 2nd horse always < 4 lengths behind
4/7/3/1 --- 3,6,4,1

Race 4: 2 went at it early, with another joining in on the turn; winner came from 5th, about 4 lengths behind. What's interesting here is that the 2nd horse, coming from 3rd last and almost 8 lengths behind, had dead aim on the winner for a good part of the stretch and HUNG like a rat.
5/9/7/3 ---- 3/8/6/2


Race 6: The other pace horse quit but the winner was 3rd, < 2 lengths behind; so, they went 3,1 around the track
3/2/6/5 --- 3/1/6/5

Race 7: baby race --- didn't bother


Race 9: 2 pacesetters, one of which held for 3rd. winner came from 4th, 2.5 lengths behind at most. nothing really ran late here
4/5/2/9 --- 4/5/2/9

Race 11: winner comes from last, 9.5 L behind; 2nd horse from 4th, 2.5 L behind; speed holds for 3rd. Superior performance by BL.
14/4/1/11 --- 14/4/1/11


So, the only real (impressive) off the pace performance was by BL. The winner of the 1st got a perfect setup. Appears as if girlie had no excuse.

[Left Bank]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Hasn't anyone ever considered the following?

1. All the talk of RA not being the same as last year, well, it's due more to her facing decent horses this year as opposed to last. I felt that while yeah, she deserved HOY, all this talk of her all time greatness last year was ridiculous. The same can be said for Zenyatta.

2. This goes hand in hand with point 1. Zardana was undefeated prior to today on dirt. Unrivaled Belle has one loss, in which she went to the shelf immediately afterwards.

To me, she's the same horse she was last year, and I think her training schedule and race riding has helped expose her alleged greatness (all time), as has her competition.

What the hell happened today with Zardana anyways?

It was that airplane ride over the rockies.

Yet still it shows the front-runner didn't win.

[Danzig]

Have yet to see the race since I was at work. I know that racels people said the goal, win or lose today, is the bc. Whether that remains the case we'll have to wait and see. I agree with others who posted that it gets old every time one horse gets a mention, within a few posts, here comes the other. Its a testament to both that they Are only compared to each other.
However, much like stories with two sides, I think the truth about both of these horses lie somewhere in between. They aren't as good as some claim, nor as bad as others say. They both have done amazing things, yet both can be questioned for who they did those things against. Questioning their competition is entirely valid. As for zen being undefeated, that's a rarity for sure -but one has to recall that horses such as peppers pride have done the same. I don't see anyone talking hof for her. And regarding HOY last year....gimme a break. This year has nothing to do with that.
Here's to continued good health and good luck to two exciting distaffers.

[miraja2]

For me it goes like this, the results of the races this year point to the fact that when scribes are making their lists of the top 100 horses of the 21st century (at some point in the distant future) Zenyatta thus far deserves to be ranked higher than Rachel. Her ability to carry her top form from one year to the next is worthy of a lot of credit. A lot of horses - including, it would appear, RA - are simply unable to do that. Zenyatta has also demonstrated real ability on multiple surfaces over her career as a racehorse. For her career full of achievements she deserves - in my opinion - the higher overall regard. Congrats to Zenyatta and her swarms of fans (who bizarrely seem to live vicariously through her) on this achievement.

For me, that remains an entirely different question than the one of who deserved HOY last year. In my mind that was unquestionably Rachel Alexandra, and I don't see how that fact is in any way discredited by today's race, or by anything I wrote in the first paragraph.

[herkhorse]

Originally Posted by miraja2

For me it goes like this, the results of the races this year point to the fact that when scribes are making their lists of the top 100 horses of the 21st century (at some point in the distant future) Zenyatta thus far deserves to be ranked higher than Rachel. Her ability to carry her top form from one year to the next is worthy of a lot of credit. A lot of horses - including, it would appear, RA - are simply unable to do that. Zenyatta has also demonstrated real ability on multiple surfaces over her career as a racehorse. For her career full of achievements she deserves - in my opinion - the higher overall regard. Congrats to Zenyatta and her swarms of fans (who bizarrely seem to live vicariously through her) on this achievement.

For me, that remains an entirely different question that the one of who deserved HOY last year. In my mind that was unquestionably Rachel Alexandra, and I don't see how that fact is in any way discredited by today's race, or by anything I wrote in the first paragraph.

Stop making sense.

[trackrat59]

I wish Rachel would have won because that outcome would have been best for racing. That said, I'm tired of the Rachel is better than Zen & Zen is better than Rachel talk. They are both wonderful horses and great for the game. May they both remain healthy and happy and make fast, beautiful babies one day.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Stride is different this year.

I saw that too. She's not comfortable running. There's something going on. She's entitled to some wear and tear. Hope they can work it out and keep running her this year.

[phystech]

Originally Posted by trackrat59

I wish Rachel would have won because that outcome would have been best for racing. That said, I'm tired of the Rachel is better than Zen & Zen is better than Rachel talk. They are both wonderful horses and great for the game. May they both remain healthy and happy and make fast, beautiful babies one day.

I'm tired of it too

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by miraja2

For me it goes like this, the results of the races this year point to the fact that when scribes are making their lists of the top 100 horses of the 21st century (at some point in the distant future) Zenyatta thus far deserves to be ranked higher than Rachel. Her ability to carry her top form from one year to the next is worthy of a lot of credit. A lot of horses - including, it would appear, RA - are simply unable to do that. Zenyatta has also demonstrated real ability on multiple surfaces over her career as a racehorse. For her career full of achievements she deserves - in my opinion - the higher overall regard. Congrats to Zenyatta and her swarms of fans (who bizarrely seem to live vicariously through her) on this achievement.

For me, that remains an entirely different question than the one of who deserved HOY last year. In my mind that was unquestionably Rachel Alexandra, and I don't see how that fact is in any way discredited by today's race, or by anything I wrote in the first paragraph.

[letswastemoney]

There aren't a lot of horses that will even generate this amount of debate, so that is good in itself, no matter what side you are on.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

There aren't a lot of horses that will even generate this amount of debate, so that is good in itself, no matter what side you are on.

that's the thing, some of us aren't on a side...it's almost like politics!

[Danzig]

i just got home a bit ago, and went to bloodhorse. read the article about the race.

be fair, who duelled with rachel through the early going, finished where? rachel gets beat a head, at the wire, when her dancing partner finishes last, and people are complaining....there's no pleasing people i guess! hell, the way i was reading the posts, it's like she got beat the length of the stretch. gimme a break.


but i do wish jess jackson, who probably couldn't tell one end of a horse from the other, or a filly from a colt, hadn't decided that she needed her racing style to be tinkered with. if it isn't broke, don't fix it! sheesh.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Let's break this down a little further; going by the charts; with top 4 positions at the 1st and 2nd call.

Race 1: 4 horses go at it, the race collapses, and the winner comes from last.
8/4/2/3 --- 7/4/1/3

Race 2: 2 horse duel, winner comes from 4th position, less than 2.5 less behind; 2nd horse always < 4 lengths behind
4/7/3/1 --- 3,6,4,1

Race 4: 2 went at it early, with another joining in on the turn; winner came from 5th, about 4 lengths behind. What's interesting here is that the 2nd horse, coming from 3rd last and almost 8 lengths behind, had dead aim on the winner for a good part of the stretch and HUNG like a rat.
5/9/7/3 ---- 3/8/6/2


Race 6: The other pace horse quit but the winner was 3rd, < 2 lengths behind; so, they went 3,1 around the track
3/2/6/5 --- 3/1/6/5

Race 7: baby race --- didn't bother


Race 9: 2 pacesetters, one of which held for 3rd. winner came from 4th, 2.5 lengths behind at most. nothing really ran late here
4/5/2/9 --- 4/5/2/9

Race 11: winner comes from last, 9.5 L behind; 2nd horse from 4th, 2.5 L behind; speed holds for 3rd. Superior performance by BL.
14/4/1/11 --- 14/4/1/11


So, the only real (impressive) off the pace performance was by BL. The winner of the 1st got a perfect setup. Appears as if girlie had no excuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64...eature=related

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

be fair, who duelled with rachel through the early going, finished where? rachel gets beat a head, at the wire, when her dancing partner finishes last, and people are complaining....there's no pleasing people i guess! hell, the way i was reading the posts, it's like she got beat the length of the stretch. gimme a break.

Be Fair is nothing.

Now, I'm not saying that the 48.4 half mile was the only reason she got beat, but man, why take away your greatest asset by running such a pedestrian half mile?

And, btw, there was no duel up front. Borel clearly rode RA to not get the lead (instructions or not). And why let other horses stay in the race when you can comfortably put them away by then?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by philcski

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64...eature=related

Phil, now you've really done it.

Be prepared for the all out Fat Charts and Trakus voodoo doll combo made in your likeness. I see pins and needles in your immediate future.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Im not understanding how people are blaming the rider here. What did he do wrong? He sat right off a relatively slow pace and pounced around the turn. What was he supposed to do? She didnt get checked or have any traffic problems and he didnt get her into any kind of duel.

Calvin did his job. If she was good enough today, she wins. She wasn't good enough today.

well said.

[Indian Charlie]

Not well said at all.

Unless you mean he was grammatically correct.

If you don't understand how taking away the speed from a high quality and brilliantly fast horse is a poor tactic, than there really is no way for it to be explained to you.

Go and watch a few thousand more races, and watch what happens to horses like, say, Bertrando, when the jock doesn't let them roll.

And just because he wasn't fighting her doesn't mean he was not compromising her chances of winning.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Not well said at all.

Unless you mean he was grammatically correct.

If you don't understand how taking away the speed from a high quality and brilliantly fast horse is a poor tactic, than there really is no way for it to be explained to you.

Go and watch a few thousand more races, and watch what happens to horses like, say, Bertrando, when the jock doesn't let them roll.

And just because he wasn't fighting her doesn't mean he was not compromising her chances of winning.

perhaps you need to watch a few of her past races.

sometimes a horse is just a horse.