Crist: The great distaffers..

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

for starters, most of her career was spent running against pretty mediocre fillies, high figs or not.

she also seemed to find ways to lose in the really big races she was in. Beautiful Pleasure was a really good mare, but some of these others she lost to, or struggled to beat, they left alot to be desired.

she was visually speaking, not that impressive a horse. watching her, i always felt like i was watching a plodder that was picking off tired horses that had nothing left.

i never did understand the high figs she got, as she almost always ran slow times, with slow closing fractions coming after decent to moderate paces. certainly not every time, but in the first half of her career, she screamed plodder to me.

finally, there was just this intangible quality about her that's hard to convey in a post. back in those days, i was no lover of eastern racing, but there were plenty of horses in the east that i was a big fan of. I say this, because i had the utmost confidence that she'd lose the Oaks, and both appearances in the distaff, and it had nothing to do with me being a biased fan of california racing.

I'm not going to make a case for her as an all-timer or anything, but I disagree on a couple of your points. As far as the competition goes, Escena, Glitter Woman, Jersey Girl, Heritage Of Gold, Sister Act, and Manistique were all Grade 1 winners and Lu Ravi and Silent Eskimo were millionaires, so I wouldn't look too down on them.

As far as the plodder status, at least as a 3yo, I thought she had a pretty good turn of foot and certainly had stamina to go along with it. Don't really recall her 4yo races that much.

I liked her a lot in the KY Oaks. Her modest 3rd in the Ashland following a bust out win in the Bonnie Miss was a near carbon copy of the way Unbridled ran for Carl Nafzger in the Blue Grass prior to his Derby win. Unfortunately, IIRC, Jerry Bailey moved much too soon on her in the Oaks and got tagged near the line by a late running Keeper Hill (who I would label as the plodder above all else).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Gaining Ground

careerwise, sure. and banshee breeze was a hell of a lot more consistent. she always showed up as you said. im just saying when they met, a neck separated them in the cca oaks and kentucky oaks. keeper hill finished in front of her in the mother goose and spinster. behind her in the personal ensign and bc distaff.

i just dont think they were that far off of each other when keeper hill was on her game. banshee breeze was always on her game.

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

[Gaining Ground]

i said banshree breeze was a better horse. she was clearly the more consistent horse and accomlished a hell of a lot more on track than keeper hill. however, when they met on the racetrack, for whatever cicumstances there wasnt a lot separating them. and at keeper hill's best, she could beat banshhe breeze and did, twice. that is what i am saying, which leads me to think banshee breeze would have little to no shot vs zenyatta or rachel alexandra.

if you said inside infromation i might agree.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Rachel and Zenyatta would have drowned Banshee Breeze.

Wasn't Banshee Breeze's performance in the Apple Blossom in '99 more impressive than either of Zenyatta's trips there?
Of course, that doesn't have to mean your statement is incorrect, but Zenyatta doesn't exactly "drown" very many horses, and I think Banshee Breeze might be a whole lot better than some horses Zenyatta hasn't beaten by much.

To me, she also seems better than a couple of horses that beat RA this year. I'm not saying I would bet Banshee Breeze over those two, but it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to compare her on even terms with those two. Does it?.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I think I made myself clear in what way you backpedaled. You wanted to compare Zenyatta and Personal Ensign earlier today ("it was a ploy") and now you don't.

To justify your backpedal you say that Zenyatta has yet to finish her career and therefore we should wait to compare her with Personal Ensign.

3 times since that post you have posted "what if" scenarios of her winning the 2010 BC Classic.

If you were as consistent as Zenyatta is we wouldn't need to keep going over this.

As for the "sanctity of the opinion" BS, if I thought your opinion should be erased I'd just become a moderator.

In reality, I posted according to the Crist blog that she had raced only once out of N.Y, go back and look. That started the dialogue for obvious reasons since one of Zenyatta's criticisms is she doesn't ship often enough, all the rest of the stuff came from your imaginary mind. I also pointed out wouldn't it be fairer to judge Zenyatta as a whole after this year, a point you agreed with me. If that is a backpedal in your mind, I'm sorry I can't help you.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Babe Ruth was a pitcher first then was a position player. He didnt do them at the same time. In 1919 he pitched for 1/2 the year before becoming a position player for good. Rick Ankiel has done the same thing albeit with much less success. Of all the sports baseball is by far the closest to the same games as the years go by.

I thought I read somewhere he was slowly converted from pitcher to outfield and may have played both at one time, regardless this is an interesting point, was Roger Clemons a better pitcher Pre-HGH or Post-HGH?

[slotdirt]

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Clemens was a pretty awesome pitcher in the 80's. Whether that was performance enhanced or not is anyone's guess.

He was, but he was even more awesome after he bulked up. Plus I doubt he could pitch as long as he did without the help...

[slotdirt]

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The argument could easily be made that his best season were his Red Sox years - look at that 1986 season, for instance, was probably his best (AL MVP, Cy Young, etc.) - though his Toronto years were also pretty awesome. When did he bulk up though, that's the question? And in the late 80's, pretty much everybody was on steroids, so I'm not sure it takes that much more away from him considering every hitter he was facing probably had access to the same medicine chest.

I agree, cheaters playing cheaters. That is why I say the game has evolved, shortstops rarely ever hit for power prior to Robin Yount doing it when he went on the weight thing. Ruth, Maris, Aaron were great when they played in their era but had they played without the "help" in this steriods era, I have a hard time buying that they would have been equally as good in today's game.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I am wondering what the criteria is to get her into the class of say an Azeri or Personal Ensign, its often inferred she needs to do more, I am just wondering exactly what.

face better horses not all in cali..take on the boys more ect.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

ill give her this drugs she raced all over vs anyone

[Sightseek]

It's too bad Zenyatta will never get to face the monsters that Azeri had to face.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

From the summer of their 3yo filly season on ... Banshee Breeze was vastly superior in every way.

The Spinster result was all about Keeneland's track bias. Banshee Breeze was 4 wide on both turns over a rail favoring race track .. Keeper Hill slipped up the rail and I believe was rail, rail on both turns ... Frankel praising it as one of the best rides.

Keeper Hill might be a 3 time Grade 1 winner .. but I think it's a huge insult to Banshee Breeze to say they had the same ability.

The thing I remember Keeper Hill for is how she's likely the answer to a trivia question.

[Smooth Operator]

Wow … all these posts and not one mention of the most remarkable thing on Crist's list

Not only was she a champion tennis player … but Chris Evert was fast enough to earn over $600k racing against thoroughbreds.

Amazing stuff

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

While the 13 for 13 may not stand up to Zenyatta's 17 for 17, there is a big difference IMO between running at 2 and 3 and not starting until nearly 4 years of age ... Though in basic terms, there race records are similar, here's the essential difference between the two:

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?


By the way, upon further review of PE's Whitney … G looks to have been beyond his scope going nine … and thus quite vulnerable … and the show horse was like a hundred years old that year … and basically just a G3-type Aqueduct runner at that point.

[blackthroatedwind]

Gulch won the Wood Memorial.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

But as you suggest, these guys running the show want another Ghostzapper, not another Skip Away.

Please … GZ blows a horse like MM off the track.

Not to mention the fact that he could carry his speed ten panels against the best comp.

Jury still very much out for QR on that one…

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

One needed "several screws" in her ankle after two starts while the other has been pretty much sound as a bell after 17?


By the way, upon further review of PE's Whitney … G looks to have been beyond his scope going nine … and thus quite vulnerable … and the show horse was like a hundred years old that year … and basically just a G3-type Aqueduct runner at that point.

Watch yourself, it is blasphemy to compare any horse to Personal Ensign on this board.

[Indian Charlie]

Upon further review of the 2009 BCC, it appears that the field truly sucked ass.