Brother Derek is a fraud...

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing[B

]True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably[/b]...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

I dont agree with you here Joel. Oracle, in the midst of his rant, actually makes a pretty good point. Which is...horses go through form cycles. There are plenty of horses that go through stretches in their respective careers in which they look far from what they did in top form.

Is there any question that Brother Derek handles that group from saturday if in top form? Numbers and results support this. Its not like he was stepping up to older horses or better three year olds.

Was Skip Away not a great horse? Was he not at least a very good one? Look at some of the races that he lost. How about Artax? Housebuster? More recently, look at some of the horses that Pico Central lost to when he was off form. Or how about Congaree? Was Shake you down a "fraud" when he was winning every sprint in sight or is seeing him running for a tag at charlestown the fruad?

You may ultimately be right about brother Derek. He may have been a precocious three year old that beat up on a weaker than usual group out west. But...I think i will give him a couple of more races before i decide that for myself. He may very well just be going through a cycle of bad form.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

No, that's not true. Look at Flower Alley even last year. He got beat by 15 lengths in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. Did that race prove much? It obviously didn't prove much because he came back in his next start and ran 2nd in the BC Classic. One bad race doesn't mean much. Most great horses had a few bad races.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Nostradamus

Oracle, you are very knowledgable, maybe more than anyone else here, but the personal attacks on Cunningham and his father are uncalled for. Saying a horse is a fraud (overrated) is not an attack. It is just saying the horse is not what people say he is. There are tons of horses like this. My brother has called Sunriver a fraud all year, and he likes the owners. That doesn't mean it is personal.

i stand by what i said earlier in this thread ,his derby run with the **** post and horrible trip in the derby and still to place like he did shows a hell of alot . lets think if he had a better post . horrible trip in preak again. like oracle said-injurymaybe-or just plain worn out from the preps and tc-or rusty- but to use fraud after one race and even then after all his stake wins is crap. so all his wins were a fluke and should have lost and his good run in the derby was a fluke because the horse is not what people say he is? well what the heck is he allowance material, claimer? nobody out here is saying he's a great or super horse but a fraud. i know who the fraud is !!!!!!!!!!!

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

True, but a good horse shows up and at least fires everytime or tries and runs respectably...that is the point I was making....to run 4th in a 5 or 6 horse field in a listed stakes event without ever seriously threatening in the race when you are a multiple garded stakes winner and have been hyped all year is not acceptable - not by anyone's measure...

Carl Lewis should be able to beat or at least run respectably against college track athletes any day of the week, right?

and thats what bd did thru all his preps and the derby, showed up and fired every damn time and and won and ran respectably, your going off one race not knowin the reason for the poor finish. please...............

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think it's fair to judge BD based on his performnace yesterday. He obviously didn't fire. His bad race yesterday does not take away what he did earlier in the year. I would say the same thing about Flower Alley. I'm not going to judge FA based on his last two races. The horse obviously is not the same horse right now. FA's bad race yesterday doesn't have any bearing on how I view his races from last year. He ran some very good races last year. You can't take that away from him. It doesn't matter if they retire him tomorrow, which they probably will. He already proved himself.

I will admit that BD still needs to prove himself on the road. But his loss yesterday was at home on a day where he obviously didn't have it. He may not like Del Mar. He didn't run particularly well their last year.

Anyway, I'm only going to judge a horse's ability off their best race. I'm not going to judge their ability on some race where they didn't fire.

rupert since i got on here i have to tell you , you are one of the most logical ones on this board always enjoy your insights

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

rupert since i got on here i have to tell you , you are one of the most logical ones on this board always enjoy your insights

Thanks PD. I appreciate the compliment.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

and thats what bd did thru all his preps and the derby, showed up and fired every damn time and and won and ran respectably, your going off one race not knowin the reason for the poor finish. please...............

Yes, that is exactly correct.

[Slewbopper]

Lava Man gets a lot of flack for being a west coast horse. Let's looks at Bro D's record. He is specifically an LA horse. He has six wins. All came at Hol or SA. He has a 3rd and 4th at Delmar, a 4th at Bel, a 4th at CD, and a 4th at Pim.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I dont agree with you here Joel. Oracle, in the midst of his rant, actually makes a pretty good point. Which is...horses go through form cycles. There are plenty of horses that go through stretches in their respective careers in which they look far from what they did in top form.

Is there any question that Brother Derek handles that group from saturday if in top form? Numbers and results support this. Its not like he was stepping up to older horses or better three year olds.

Was Skip Away not a great horse? Was he not at least a very good one? Look at some of the races that he lost. How about Artax? Housebuster? More recently, look at some of the horses that Pico Central lost to when he was off form. Or how about Congaree? Was Shake you down a "fraud" when he was winning every sprint in sight or is seeing him running for a tag at charlestown the fruad?

You may ultimately be right about brother Derek. He may have been a precocious three year old that beat up on a weaker than usual group out west. But...I think i will give him a couple of more races before i decide that for myself. He may very well just be going through a cycle of bad form.

So, I guess it was Hendricks fault then?...I mean, he was breezing lights out and fit and ready for his first start off a freshener by all reports...showed a 58 breeze and looked good in the flesh....So, if that is the case, then Hendricks doesn't know his horse very well.....the way I look at it, he should have still made a better account of himself - regardless of his form or will or anything else....he was fit, was fresh, and supposedly has a little class - that alone should have put him in the TRI of a listed stakes event, shouldn't it?

NO multiple Grade 1 winner with the inflated reputation that he had should get a free pass for such an uninspiring and mediocre effort as that was....he came home like a ten-claimer and it was disgraceful....he should display more class than that if he indeed is to be believed as "genuine" by the racing faithful whom labled him as the Derby favorite all winter and spring.....

That is just my opinion and I'm sticking to it....when the USA Olympic basketball team gets schooled by the shorter, slower, and less athletic International teams (which is getting ridiculously regular now and it is a disgarce and discredit to the entire NBA - IMO), it is the medias responsibility and American basketball publics responsibility to call them out on it because it is unacceptable......As a horse racing fan and analyst, I don't see any excuse for letting what happened to Brother Derek just slide......it was a joke of a performnace....you'll never see Bernardini or a real champ spit the bit like that - especially against listed stakes horses.....what a shame...