Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Riot

I agree it's a mess. The Dems have advised Walker they would return if he would allow discussion and compromise. Walker has refused and said the bill stands exactly as it is. The union has said they would agree to all his proposals regarding pension/healthcare if he removed taking away their collective bargaining rights. Walker has refused. I have no idea how this will end.

Edit: Wisconsin Law Enforcement Association, who endorsed Walker, today issues an apology and retraction of that endorsement on their website: http://www.wlea.org/

[Riot]

The Koch brothers (the third-richest Americans, David and Charles Koch) started and fund one of the Tea Party groups (they paid to bus in Tea Party counter-demonstrators in Wisconsin Saturday) Most of their money is oil money, and they are huge financial players in politics, funding Republican candidates. One of the brothers once ran for federal office as a Libertarian.

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...public-unions/

02/21/2011 11:43 AM
Little-Noticed Provision In Walker's Bill Could Reap Huge Gains For Koch Industries The Huffington Post's Amanda Terkel reports:

While there has been significant attention devoted to the fact that Walker's 144-page budget repair bill would strip away collective bargaining rights for public employees, the site "Rortybomb" points out a less noticed provision that would allow the state to sell or contract out any state-owned energy asset in no-bid deals with private corporations. From the legislation (emphasis added):

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

It's unclear what "the best interest of the state" is.

But if this deal goes through, one of the companies that could stand to benefit significantly is Koch Industries. Koch already has several companies in the state, including a coal subsidiary, timber plants and a large network of pipelines.

During the 2010 election cycle, Walker received $43,000 from the Koch Industries PAC, his second-largest contribution. The PAC also gave significantly to the Republican Governors Association, which in turn helped out Walker considerably in his race. Koch also contributed $6,500 to support 16 Republican legislative candidates in the state.

The Koch-funded group Americans for Prosperity has also been standing with Walker throughout his budget battles, busing in Tea Party activists and launching the site, Stand With Walker. After the election, Walker and other Republican governors received guidance from the American Legislative Exchange Council, a group that is also funded by Koch dollars and has pushed anti-union measures.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

I agree it's a mess. The Dems have advised Walker they would return if he would allow discussion and compromise. Walker has refused and said the bill stands exactly as it is. The union has said they would agree to all his proposals regarding pension/healthcare if he removed taking away their collective bargaining rights. Walker has refused. I have no idea how this will end.

]

To quote President Obama "We Won".

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

To quote President Obama "We Won".

The man was elected Governor - not dictator. He's thrown his lot in with the Koch brothers, rather than his citizens. He's absolutely refusing to budge. Good luck with that.

I seem to recall we just finished two years of complete and total obstructionism within the Senate of the United States. Don't recall you complaining about the minority dictating to the majority what will happen, and what will not, there. They all need to grow up, and work together.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Riot

The man was elected Governor - not dictator. He's thrown his lot in with the Koch brothers, rather than his citizens. He's absolutely refusing to budge. Good luck with that.

I seem to recall we just finished two years of complete and total obstructionism within the Senate of the United States. Don't recall you complaining about the minority dictating to the majority what will happen, and what will not, there. They all need to grow up, and work together.

even if it means you have to compromise your principles

oh sorry

forgot who I was talking to

[Riot]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

even if it means you have to compromise your principles

oh sorry

forgot who I was talking to

No, you do not have to compromise your principles to compromise politically.

How's that crazy birther conspiracy thing you love working for you? Were you sad the Supreme Court threw it out?

[Riot]

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loca...cc4c03286.html

Koch brothers quietly open lobbying office in downtown Madison

The billionaire brothers whose political action committee gave Gov. Scott Walker $43,000 and helped fund a multi-million dollar attack ad campaign against his opponent during the 2010 gubernatorial election have quietly opened a lobbying office in Madison just off the Capitol Square.

Charles and David Koch, who co-own Koch Industries Inc. and whose combined worth is estimated at $43 billion, have been recently tied with Walker's push to eliminate collective bargaining rights for public workers. The two have long backed conservative causes and groups including Americans for Prosperity, which organized the Tea Party rally Saturday in support of Walker's plan to strip public workers of collective bargaining rights and recently launched the Stand with Scott Walker website.

Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity, acknowledged in a New York Times story Tuesday that he had encouraged Walker even before the election to mount a showdown with labor groups.

Koch Companies Public Sector LLC occupies a seventh-floor suite at 10 E. Doty St. According to an unidentified tenant there, the lobbying group moved in two weeks before Walker was elected governor on November 2. Jeffrey Schoepke, the company's regional manager, did not return a phone call seeking more information on the firm.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loca...cc4c03286.html

Koch brothers quietly open lobbying office in downtown Madison

The billionaire brothers whose political action committee gave Gov. Scott Walker $43,000 and helped fund a multi-million dollar attack ad campaign against his opponent during the 2010 gubernatorial election have quietly opened a lobbying office in Madison just off the Capitol Square.

Charles and David Koch, who co-own Koch Industries Inc. and whose combined worth is estimated at $43 billion, have been recently tied with Walker's push to eliminate collective bargaining rights for public workers. The two have long backed conservative causes and groups including Americans for Prosperity, which organized the Tea Party rally Saturday in support of Walker's plan to strip public workers of collective bargaining rights and recently launched the Stand with Scott Walker website.

Tim Phillips, president of Americans for Prosperity, acknowledged in a New York Times story Tuesday that he had encouraged Walker even before the election to mount a showdown with labor groups.

Koch Companies Public Sector LLC occupies a seventh-floor suite at 10 E. Doty St. According to an unidentified tenant there, the lobbying group moved in two weeks before Walker was elected governor on November 2. Jeffrey Schoepke, the company's regional manager, did not return a phone call seeking more information on the firm.

Actually their goal is to use genetic engineering at UW Madison to clone the perfect laborer and eliminate all jobs for people currently employed.

Can I ask you one question? Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a god given right?

Here is what Democratic President FDR had to say:

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Can I ask you one question? Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a god given right?

What does a god have to do with anything?

Legally - which is the only standard in our country - there is nothing wrong with unions in a constitutional sense. Unions are definitively allowed within our "union" of states. In both public and private sector.

Collective bargaining is an agreement, a contract, between and employer and their employees. It's pure libertarian capitalism in action - each side is to bargain towards their own maximum self-interest and benefit. They shake on the result agreement and sign on the dotted line.

So when a corporate mouthpiece like Scott Walker attempts to quietly ram through a bill ending 50 years of collective bargaining rights within a few days, with little debate - the unions, and those that support them, most certainly have every "right" to stand up for their own self-interest. It's the Libertarian, capitalistic thing to do

In Wisconsin, public sector employees earn about 5% less than their counterpart in the private sector. That could be one reason why unions still exist in Wisconsin.

Because in places where employees feel treated and paid fairly for their work, unions do not gain footholds.

Not to mention the threats to all workers on a federal level right now, where some current congressmen want to relax child labor laws, lower the minimum wage, relax workplace safety regulations, etc.

Seems unions may be more needed than ever in the next few years if those guys get their way.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

What does a god have to do with anything?

Legally - which is the only standard in our country - there is nothing wrong with unions in a constitutional sense. Unions are definitively allowed within our "union" of states. In both public and private sector.

Collective bargaining is an agreement, a contract, between and employer and their employees. It's pure libertarian capitalism in action - each side is to bargain towards their own maximum self-interest and benefit. They shake on the result agreement and sign on the dotted line.

So when a corporate mouthpiece like Scott Walker attempts to quietly ram through a bill ending 50 years of collective bargaining rights within a few days, with little debate - the unions, and those that support them, most certainly have every "right" to stand up for their own self-interest. It's the Libertarian, capitalistic thing to do

In Wisconsin, public sector employees earn about 5% less than their counterpart in the private sector. That could be one reason why unions still exist in Wisconsin.

Because in places where employees feel treated and paid fairly for their work, unions do not gain footholds.

Not to mention the threats to all workers on a federal level right now, where some current congressmen want to relax child labor laws, lower the minimum wage, relax workplace safety regulations, etc.

Seems unions may be more needed than ever in the next few years if those guys get their way.

In typically democratic fashion you didn't answer my question. Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a right?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

In typically democratic fashion you didn't answer my question. Since when is collective bargaining in the public sector a right?

Nonsense. Wrong. I clearly answered it. Look again. Second paragraph. You know, that Constitution thingy that gives us our "rights" to enter legal agreements? All our decades of previous constitutional law that verifies our "right" to form and bargain as a union? And an employers "right" to pay all employees according to bargaining agreements they've made with a "union"?

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Wrong. I clearly answered it. Look again. Second paragraph. You know, that Constitution thingy that gives us our "rights" to enter legal agreements?

I don't know why I even try with you. The constitution does not state that collective bargaining is a right. Legal agreements and collective bargaining are not the same thing. WI has some of the most rigorous consumer protection and labor laws in the country so collective bargaining is not needed anymore other than to negotiate on salaries, which is still allowed under the proposal.

[Riot]

Oh, gawd, this has been confirmed by Walker's office ... sigh. Reminds of when Sarah Palin thought she was talking to Sarkozy.

Only far worse about revealing what Scott Walker thinks about the unions, and how to end the impasse. Wow. Read all the way to the end and listen to the tape.

Don't these guys have aids to keep them from accidentally stepping in it and ending their political careers? Seriously. Some heads need to roll here.

Gov. Scott Walker Gets Punked By Journalist Pretending To Be David Koch

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_827058.html

And here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/wei...nk-caller.aspx

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

I don't know why I even try with you.

Can't lose the lame insults and talk about the topic? Try really hard to step out of your normal.

The constitution does not state that collective bargaining is a right.

You're right, there is no mention of the words "collective bargaining rights" in the Constitution.

Yet our legal system, up to and including the Supreme Court, for decades have ruled those very unions, in a variety of forms, legal. Legal = "a constitutional right" in our world. Do you have any compelling evidence at all that there has been no right to form unions? Because if so, you'd better tell the Supreme Court. They've apparently been wrong all these decades according to you.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Can't lose the lame insults and talk about the topic? Try really hard to step out of your normal.



You're right, there is no mention of the words "collective bargaining rights" in the Constitution.

Yet our legal system, up to and including the Supreme Court, for decades have ruled those very unions, in a variety of forms, legal. Legal = "a constitutional right" in our world. Do you have any compelling evidence at all that there has been no right to form unions? Because if so, you'd better tell the Supreme Court. They've apparently been wrong all these decades according to you.

There is nothing wrong with the right to form unions. Unions are legal and you have every right to form a union, however last I checked we live in a country based on freedom of choice and people should have the right to choose whether or not to belong to the union in the public sector. If the unions are so great and provides such huge benefits to the workers why are they scared of giving the employees the choice to belong or not belong? WEAC (the WI teacher's union) which is funded thru tax payer money (thru paying teachers salaries) donated $1.57 million last year to 4 senate democrats because it is all about the kids.

[Riot]

See, Governor Walker, this is why you do not try and secretly rush through legislation that changes things markedly (eliminate collective bargaining rights) without some time, a deep breath and public debate:


Sam Stein reports that Walker bill, if passed, will lose Wisconsin $46 million of the $74 million it gets in federal transportation funding

WASHINGTON -- Budget referees and transportation officials in Wisconsin have informed Gov. Scott Walker (R) that if he were to pass his controversial anti-union legislation into law, he could be forfeiting tens of millions of dollars in federal funds for transportation.

Under an obscure provision of federal labor law, states risk losing federal funds should they eliminate "collective bargaining rights" that existed at the time when federal assistance was first granted. The provision, known as "protective arrangements" or "Section 13C arrangements," is meant as a means of cushioning union (and even some non-union) members who, while working on local projects, are affected by federal grants.

It also could potentially hamstring governors like Walker who want dramatic changes to labor laws in their states. Wisconsin received $74 million in federal transit funds this fiscal year. Of that, $46.6 million would be put at risk should the collective-bargaining bill come to pass -- in the process creating an even more difficult fiscal situation than the one that, ostensibly, compelled Walker to push the legislation in the first place.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_826908.html

Some Dems have an emergency amendment to exclude Transportation union members from Walkers union-busting bill ready, in an attempt to save this money for the state. Walker's office has not yet commented, so it's unknown if Walker knew about this or not (is the federal fund loss deliberate or just a mistake of ignorance?)

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

WEAC (the WI teacher's union) which is funded thru tax payer money (thru paying teachers salaries)

Whoa. Wrong. Once the taxpayers money goes into the paycheck, that money belongs to the employee. Nobody has the right to tell an employee what to spend their hard-earned money on.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Whoa. Wrong. Once the taxpayers money goes into the paycheck, that money belongs to the employee. Nobody has the right to tell an employee what to spend their hard-earned money on.

Your argument would have merit if the employee had a choice to belong or not belong to the union which in the case of the teachers union in WI they do not have that choice.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Your argument would have merit if the employee had a choice to belong or not belong to the union which in the case of the teachers union in WI they do not have that choice.

Nope. Once the money is earned and that paycheck is cut, all that money is the employees. Period.

That money doesn't belong to taxpayers. Taxpayers have zero say in how an employees money is spent. That's beyond absurd - Big Government controlling how you spend your pay!?

Perhaps employees should only be allowed to spend it at one company store?

You are talking about the collective bargaining agreement an employer bargains for themselves. You seem to have a problem with what the state has bargained for themselves. That has nothing to do with what employees spend their money upon. Sounds like you need to get angry at those in your state government that bargained an agreement with teachers that you don't care for.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nope. Once the money is earned and that paycheck is cut, all that money is the employees. Period.

That money doesn't belong to taxpayers. Taxpayers have zero say in how an employees money is spent. That's beyond absurd - Big Government controlling how you spend your pay!?

Perhaps employees should only be allowed to spend it at one company store?

You are talking about the collective bargaining agreement an employer bargains for themselves. You seem to have a problem with what the state has bargained for themselves. That has nothing to do with what employees spend their money upon. Sounds like you need to get angry at those in your state government that bargained an agreement with teachers that you don't care for.

An employee has the freedom to choose to work in a job where they have to join a union, or not.

I believe what he is saying is that the teachers are paid with taxpayer money AND before they get paid, thier union dues are taken out of thier checks involuntarily because they are forced currently to be in the union.