Derby replaces graded earnings with point system

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The idea that suddenly NYRA will only have one 2yo race per week and 4 horses in their 2yo stakes at Saratoga because of this new Derby system is funny.

And I also cannot imagine any trainer with a talented horse will ever say, "Let's wait until February to start, so we can break our Maiden, and then get a nifty stakes score in March, stay undefeated via the 100 pointer in April and win the Derby." That might be more silly.

Really? So you think that trainers/owners will just continue to do the same thing? You don't believe that a impressive maiden winner at Saratoga won't be treated differently knowing that the next 5 months are pretty irrelevant in terms of earning points towards the Derby?

SO what is the incentive of getting the most points? At least offer a bonus for any horse that is in the top 5 (in points) AND wins the Ky Derby

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

SO what is the incentive of getting the most points? At least offer a bonus for any horse that is in the top 5 (in points) AND wins the Ky Derby

Free lifetime pp's from twinspires.com

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Free lifetime pp's from twinspires.com

I tried to give you 5 trophies Chuck, but I was limited to 4.

I just don't see this system bring in new fans, which is pretty much the 1st words spoken by them about this. How can new fans understand this when I can't and I have watched horseracing for over 30 years?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Really? So you think that trainers/owners will just continue to do the same thing? You don't believe that a impressive maiden winner at Saratoga won't be treated differently knowing that the next 5 months are pretty irrelevant in terms of earning points towards the Derby?

2YO racing in America right now sucks. The last two years the BC Juvenile was won by a horse who had 2 career starts. However, do you really think that those horses were campaigned as 2YOs with the Derby being their main focus? These changes did not take away the incentives that come with having a 2YO champion, having graded stakes wins as a 2YO, or winning a BC race.

If anything, the guys who tried to snag a graded stake with a 2YO then mostly put them on ice (Sabercat/Gemologist) would only be able to do so at risk of missing the Derby altogether.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

I tried to give you 5 trophies Chuck, but I was limited to 4.

I just don't see this system bring in new fans, which is pretty much the 1st words spoken by them about this. How can new fans understand this when I can't and I have watched horseracing for over 30 years?

They use the new fans mantra whenever they do something that may piss people off. Like charging you a non-refundable fee to maybe get Derby tickets.

Though I saw the Yankees brass was trying the same tactic the other day when complaining about stubhub saying they were concerned about fans. The irony is they were complaining that low prices for tickets on the resale market might force them to raise prices in the future because fans were choosing to buy from stubhub rather than buy Yankee face value tickets. So basically they said low ticket prices for fans was going to cause higher ticket prices for fans...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

2YO racing in America right now sucks. The last two years the BC Juvenile was won by a horse who had 2 career starts. However, do you really think that those horses were campaigned as 2YOs with the Derby being their main focus? These changes did not take away the incentives that come with having a 2YO champion, having graded stakes wins as a 2YO, or winning a BC race.

If anything, the guys who tried to snag a graded stake with a 2YO then mostly put them on ice (Sabercat/Gemologist) would only be able to do so at risk of missing the Derby altogether.

Yes but this system will not change that pattern and likely will make it worse. Remember a few years ago when good horses were skipping the BC because of the "jinx"? The herd mentality is quite prevelant in this business and things like Zenyatta playing keep away and winning the HoY despite losing classic, Hansen basically winning 1 race and being champion 2 yo...well they arent exactly great role models

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

I tried to give you 5 trophies Chuck, but I was limited to 4.

I just don't see this system bring in new fans, which is pretty much the 1st words spoken by them about this. How can new fans understand this when I can't and I have watched horseracing for over 30 years?

there's a max on 4 trophies available for any post regardless of quality until the 3 year old season.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

there's a max on 4 trophies available for any post regardless of quality until the 3 year old season.

Would that be in March, or April?

[slotdirt]

I've been thinking about the silliness of this new system for the last few days. Envision the horse who breaks his maiden impressively at DMR, takes the Del Mar Futurity second out, and wins the Norfolk with ease in his third start (10 points). The horse racing world would be buzzing about said horse. Horse has a minor fever and is held out of the Breeders Cup, but is well enough to come back and run a very game second in the Cashcall Futurity (four points). After a freshening, the same horse comes back and airs in the Robert B. Lewis (10 more points), but has all kinds of trouble and ends up fourth in Santa Anita Derby (10 points).

After all of that, this horse would have easily made the Derby under the old system, but under the new system, he's very much a fringe candidate. And for the casual fan who just happened to catch the maiden breaker at DMR and as a result has been following the horse into his 3YO career, it would be difficult to explain why such a clearly talented animal is missing the field.

I'm going to need a cheat sheet to understand Derby entry come 2013.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I've been thinking about the silliness of this new system for the last few days. Envision the horse who breaks his maiden impressively at DMR, takes the Del Mar Futurity second out, and wins the Norfolk with ease in his third start (10 points). The horse racing world would be buzzing about said horse. Horse has a minor fever and is held out of the Breeders Cup, but is well enough to come back and run a very game second in the Cashcall Futurity (four points). After a freshening, the same horse comes back and airs in the Robert B. Lewis (10 more points), but has all kinds of trouble and ends up fourth in Santa Anita Derby (10 points).

After all of that, this horse would have easily made the Derby under the old system, but under the new system, he's very much a fringe candidate. And for the casual fan who just happened to catch the maiden breaker at DMR and as a result has been following the horse into his 3YO career, it would be difficult to explain why such a clearly talented animal is missing the field.

I'm going to need a cheat sheet to understand Derby entry come 2013.

There is absolutely no way that a horse with 34 pts is missing the Derby. None. It's also highly unlikely he is a fringe player. This 40 pt number is hysterical. It's like saying under the old system you needed 500k to get in the gate.

More importantly, this hypothetical horse's trainer could have easily started him between the Lewis and SA Derby. It's OK for horses to be run more than twice before the Kentucky Derby.

[slotdirt]

Horses aren't machines. Stuff happens. What if a horse lost a week of training time because of a minor ailment between the Robert B. Lewis and SA Derby?

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

There is absolutely no way that a horse with 34 pts is missing the Derby. None. It's also highly unlikely he is a fringe player. This 40 pt number is hysterical. It's like saying under the old system you needed 500k to get in the gate.

More importantly, this hypothetical horse's trainer could have easily started him between the Lewis and SA Derby. It's OK for horses to be run more than twice before the Kentucky Derby.

Yeah.

The person who started that idiotic 40 points cut-off stuff was Churchill Downs communications director Darren Rodgers.

The system is stupid and the Chuchill people who claim they did "extensive research" in the USA Today piece aren't very bright to say the least.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I've been thinking about the silliness of this new system for the last few days. Envision the horse who breaks his maiden impressively at DMR, takes the Del Mar Futurity second out, and wins the Norfolk with ease in his third start (10 points). The horse racing world would be buzzing about said horse. Horse has a minor fever and is held out of the Breeders Cup, but is well enough to come back and run a very game second in the Cashcall Futurity (four points). After a freshening, the same horse comes back and airs in the Robert B. Lewis (10 more points), but has all kinds of trouble and ends up fourth in Santa Anita Derby (10 points).

After all of that, this horse would have easily made the Derby under the old system, but under the new system, he's very much a fringe candidate. And for the casual fan who just happened to catch the maiden breaker at DMR and as a result has been following the horse into his 3YO career, it would be difficult to explain why such a clearly talented animal is missing the field.

I'm going to need a cheat sheet to understand Derby entry come 2013.

The hell with the cheat sheet for getting in, get a crystal ball to figure out who's going to bleed and run up the track.

[slotdirt]

Even if it's a 30 point threshold, there are plenty of scenarios where a horse wins a couple of 10 point races in the late winter and misses the Derby. But hey, the Louisiana Derby is worth 100 points, so it's all good. Friesan Fire will be psyched.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Even if it's a 30 point threshold, there are plenty of scenarios where a horse wins a couple of 10 point races in the late winter and misses the Derby. But hey, the Louisiana Derby is worth 100 points, so it's all good. Friesan Fire will be psyched.

Afleet Alex, who came out of the Rebel with a lung infection - was saved by quick healing and a game win in the Ark Derby, otherwise he doesn't make the KD field under this system - his Sanford (track record graded stakes win) and his win in the Hopeful mean exactly squat. Don't mean to keep going back to this, but it really is going to be a shame that these prestigious 2yo races now have zero value on the derby trail.

[slotdirt]

I get that they want to move away from sprint races earning Derby entrance, but the Hopeful was won by pretty much every historically great horse that's run on dirt in this country.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

It's OK for horses to be run more than twice before the Kentucky Derby.

Thanks, that was the point I was making early on, maybe being ultra conservative race 2 times in the 5 months prior to the Derby might be given a second thought.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I get that they want to move away from sprint races earning Derby entrance, but the Hopeful was won by pretty much every historically great horse that's run on dirt in this country.

Really? Every?

[slotdirt]

Secretariat, Affirmed, Buckpasser, Native Dancer, Needles, Nashua, Man o' War, Regret, Devil Diver, Whirlaway, General Assembly, Foolish Pleasure, Timely Writer, Hail to Reason, Sun Briar, etc. It's a pretty freaking impressive list.