who won the debate?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by declansharbor

It's comical how the person who instigated the whole thing is now playing the victim. Fits right into the crybaby mentality already widely demonstrated throughout the years.

I wasn't the one that crossed the line with the threat. But that's how a Gangsta rolls I guess.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

cant say im thrilled about the future..but id like to see a new liar give it a shot.

no one said it better than the who.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q


meet the new boss, same as the old boss

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

I wasn't the one that crossed the line with the threat. But that's how a Gangsta rolls I guess.

c'mon, now...you two don't need to riot-ize the thread. it was going sooo well.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

cant say im thrilled about the future..but id like to see a new liar give it a shot.

Fact Check from Last Night

OBAMA: “I’ve proposed a specific $4 trillion deficit reduction plan. ... The way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 in additional revenue.”

THE FACTS: In promising $4 trillion, Obama is already banking more than $2 trillion from legislation enacted along with Republicans last year that cut agency operating budgets and capped them for 10 years. He also claims more than $800 billion in war savings that would occur anyway. And he uses creative bookkeeping to hide spending on Medicare reimbursements to doctors. Take those “cuts” away and Obama’s $2.50/$1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases shifts significantly more in the direction of tax increases.

Obama’s February budget offered proposals that would cut deficits over the coming decade by $2 trillion instead of $4 trillion. Of that deficit reduction, tax increases accounted for $1.6 trillion. He promises relatively small spending cuts of $597 billion from big federal benefit programs like Medicare and Medicaid. He also proposed higher spending on infrastructure projects.

———

ROMNEY: Obama’s health care plan “puts in place an unelected board that’s going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don’t like that idea.”

THE FACTS: Romney is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, a panel of experts that would have the power to force Medicare cuts if costs rise beyond certain levels and Congress fails to act. But Obama’s health care law explicitly prohibits the board from rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn’t have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.

Romney seems to be resurrecting the assertion that Obama’s law would lead to rationing, made famous by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s widely debunked allegation that it would create “death panels.”

The board has yet to be named, and its members would ultimately have to be confirmed by the Senate. Health care inflation has been modest in the last few years, so cuts would be unlikely for most of the rest of this decade.

———

OBAMA: “Over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up — it’s true — but they’ve gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years. So we’re already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you’re already getting a rebate.”

THE FACTS: Not so, concerning premiums. Obama is mixing overall health care spending, which has been growing at historically low levels, and health insurance premiums, which have continued to rise faster than wages and overall economic growth. Premiums for job-based family coverage have risen by nearly $2,400 since 2009 when Obama took office, according to the nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation. In 2011, premiums jumped by 9 percent. This year’s 4 percent increase was more manageable, but the price tag for family coverage stands at $15,745, with employees paying more than $4,300 of that.

When it comes to insurance rebates under Obama’s health care law, less than 10 percent of people with private health insurance are benefiting.

More than 160 million Americans under 65 have private insurance through their jobs and by buying their own policies. According to the administration, about 13 million people will benefit from rebates. And nearly two-thirds of that number will only be entitled to a share of it, since they are covered under job-based plans where their employer pays most of the premium and will get most of the rebate.

———

ROMNEY on the failure of Obama’s economic policy: “And the proof of that is 23 million people out of work. The proof of that is 1 out of 6 people in poverty. The proof of that is we’ve gone from 32 million on food stamps to 47 million on food stamps. The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates this year can’t find work.”

THE FACTS: The number of unemployed is 12.5 million, not 23 million. Romney was also counting 8 million people who are working part time but would like a full-time job and 2.6 million who have stopped looking for work, either because they are discouraged or because they are going back to school or for other reasons.

He got the figure closer to right earlier in the debate, leaving out only the part-timers when he said the U.S. has “23 million people out of work or stopped looking for work.” But he was wrong in asserting that Obama came into office “facing 23 million people out of work.” At the start of Obama’s presidency, 12 million were out of work.

His claim that half of college graduates can’t find work now also was problematic. A Northeastern University analysis for The Associated Press found that a quarter of graduates were probably unemployed and another quarter were underemployed, which means working in jobs that didn’t make full use of their skills or experience.

———

OBAMA: It’s important “that we take some of the money that we’re saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild America.”

THE FACTS: This oft-repeated claim is based on a fiscal fiction. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were paid for mostly with borrowed money, so stopping them doesn’t create a new pool of available cash that can be used for something else, like rebuilding America. It just slows down the government’s borrowing.

———

ROMNEY: “At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up.”

THE FACTS: He’s right that the average price has doubled, and a little more, since Obama was sworn in. But presidents have almost no influence on gasoline prices, and certainly not in the near term. Gasoline prices are set on financial exchanges around the world and are based on a host of factors, most importantly the price of crude oil used to make gasoline, the amount of finished gasoline ready to be shipped and the capacity of refiners to make enough to meet market demand.

Retail electricity prices have risen since Obama took office — barely. They’ve grown by an average of less than 1 percent per year, less than the rate of inflation and slower than the historical growth in electricity prices. The unexpectedly modest rise in electricity prices is because of the plummeting cost of natural gas, which is used to generate electricity.

———

OBAMA: “Gov. Romney’s central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut — on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, that’s another trillion dollars — and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn’t asked for. That’s $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign.”

THE FACTS: Obama’s claim that Romney wants to cut taxes by $5 trillion doesn’t add up. Presumably, Obama was talking about the effect of Romney’s tax plan over 10 years, which is common in Washington. But Obama’s math doesn’t take into account Romney’s entire plan.

Romney proposes to reduce income tax rates by 20 percent and eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says that would reduce federal tax revenues by $465 billion in 2015, which would add up to about $5 trillion over 10 years.

However, Romney says he wants to pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax credits, deductions and exemptions. The goal is a simpler tax code that raises the same amount of money as the current system but does it in a more efficient manner.

The knock on Romney’s plan, which Obama accurately cited, is that Romney has refused to say which tax breaks he would eliminate to pay for the lower rates.

———

ROMNEY: “What would I cut from spending? Well, first of all, I will eliminate all programs by this test, if they pass it: Is the program so critical it’s worth borrowing money from China to pay for it?”

THE FACTS: China continues to be portrayed by Romney and many other Republicans as the poster child for runaway federal deficits. It’s true that China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, but it only represents about an 8 percent stake. And China has recently been decreasing its holdings, according to the Treasury Department. Some two-thirds of the $16 trillion national debt is owed to the federal government, with the largest single stake the Federal Reserve, as well as American investors and the Social Security Trust Fund.

———

OBAMA: “Independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet Gov. Romney’s pledge of not ... adding to the deficit is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children would pay about $2,000 more.”

THE FACTS: That’s just one scenario. Obama’s claim relies on a study by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group. The study, however, is more nuanced than Obama indicated.

The study concludes it would be impossible for Romney to meet all of his stated goals without shifting some of the tax burden from people who make more than $200,000 to people who make less.

In one scenario, the study says, Romney’s proposal could result in a $2,000 tax increase for families who make less than $200,000 and have children.

Romney says his plan wouldn’t raise taxes on anyone, and his campaign points to several studies by conservative think tanks that dispute the Tax Policy Center’s findings. Most of the conservative studies argue that Romney’s tax plan would stimulate economic growth, generating additional tax revenue without shifting any of the tax burden to the middle class. Congress, however, doesn’t use those kinds of projections when it estimates the effect of tax legislation.

———

ROMNEY on cutting the deficit: “Obamacare’s on my list. ... I’m going to stop the subsidy to PBS. ... I’ll make government more efficient.”

THE FACTS: Romney has promised to balance the budget in eight years to 10 years, but he hasn’t offered a complete plan. Instead, he’s promised a set of principles, some of which — like increasing Pentagon spending and restoring more than $700 billion in cuts that Democrats made in Medicare over the coming decade — work against his goal. He also has said he will not consider tax increases.

He pledges to shrink the government to 20 percent of the size of the economy, as opposed to more than 23 percent of gross domestic product now, by the end of his first term. The Romney campaign estimates that would require cuts of $500 billion from the 2016 budget alone. He also has pledged to cut tax rates by 20 percent, paying for them by eliminating tax breaks for the wealthiest and through economic growth.

To fulfill his promise, then, Romney would require cuts to other programs so deep — under one calculation requiring cutting many areas of the domestic budget by one-third within four years — that they could never get through Congress. Cuts to domestic agencies would have to be particularly deep.

But he’s offered only a few modest examples of government programs he’d be willing to squeeze, like subsidies to PBS and Amtrak. He does want to repeal Obama’s big health care law, but that law is actually forecast to reduce the deficit.

———

ROMNEY: “Simpson-Bowles, the president should have grabbed that.”

OBAMA: “That’s what we’ve done, made some adjustments to it, and we’re putting it before Congress right now, a $4 trillion plan.”

THE FACTS: At first, the president did largely ignore the recommendations made by his deficit commission headed by Democrat Erskine Bowles and Republican Alan Simpson. He later incorporated some of the proposals, largely the less controversial ones. He did not endorse some of the politically troublesome recommendations, such as trimming popular tax deductions like the one for home mortgage interest.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

As far as if Romney actually said anything, here's what I got Hoss (but I'll admit that I'm far from a political know it all, besides I was also flipping back and forth from the Yankees & O's games). I liked his thoughts about domestic energy. We rely too much on foreign oil, period. I have a good job and what it costs to have two vehicles is obscene. He said he wouldn't raise taxes on the middle class and he seemed to dispel Obama's myth that he's cutting the deficit. He will also repeal Obamacare. At times he sounded like a buisnessman last night and maybe that's what the country needs to get going again. Obviously it could all be lip service, but the president didn't seem like he had any answers for any of it. I think someone else said it, Obama had his 4 years, lets see what the next guy can do.

The problem is it's ALL lip service. From both of them.

You hit the nail on the head that Romney is a businessman. A businessman who sent a lot of jobs overseas because it made sense financially. So I find some of his promises a bit tough to believe. But he isn't alone there. They're both full of s.hit.

I can't remember too many politicians ever saying their plan is to raise taxes on the middle class. He was just repeating the same lie most candidates say.

I'm just at the point where I'm tired of elections where we're left with choosing who will screw us over the least. I don't see a lot of people liking Romney for a reason other than they dislike Obama. And vice versa.

It's like we're voting for Homecoming King of the United States.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The problem is it's ALL lip service. From both of them.

You hit the nail on the head that Romney is a businessman. A businessman who sent a lot of jobs overseas because it made sense financially. So I find some of his promises a bit tough to believe. But he isn't alone there. They're both full of s.hit.

I can't remember too many politicians ever saying their plan is to raise taxes on the middle class. He was just repeating the same lie most candidates say.

I'm just at the point where I'm tired of elections where we're left with choosing who will screw us over the least. I don't see a lot of people liking Romney for a reason other than they dislike Obama. And vice versa.

It's like we're voting for Homecoming King of the United States.

I'm not defending him shipping jobs across the sea. That being said, he was running a buisness and thought that was the move to make. But you would think that the country would now be his buisness, he could use his own expierences to reverse the trends and know how to entice firms to bring jobs back. Wishful thinking, quite possibly. But at least there's a buisness backround there.

I agree with you as far as the popularity contest and blame the media.

[Riot]

I can't believe there are not more conservatives here still dancing in the streets about the last few hours of Romney's "successful" debate!

I mean, c'mon guys - "16 Pants-On-Fire Lies" by Romney? "42% False content" statements by your guy?

Throwing conservative ideology under the bus? Switching policy from what he said the day before? Making up numbers out of thin air? No tax breaks?
Embracing Obamacare?

BTW, interesting reading here, and Romney telegraphed 2 days ago he was gonna do this: "Romney Won Using a Debate Technique Called the Gish Gallop" http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...he-Gish-Gallop

I have to give Romney credit, it worked - Obama was so pissed when Romney smirked and lied and said Obamacare had Death Panels you could see the steam from Obama's ears!

And when Romney repeated the $716B Medicare line three times - that took balls. Or panic over a last chance gamechanging attempt.

C'mon guys - you have the rest of the day to bask in success, before the media, Romney himself and John Sununu on his rounds of media shows today destroy the win feel for you.

Obama's poll personal approval today is at 54%, an all-time high from 2009!

Can't wait to see Romney's post debate numbers after that epic lie fest and throwing conservative principles under the bus!

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Fact Check from Last Night

he spoke of his family alot.'obama' .his grand parents wife ect..didnt he have an aunt who was living in sec 8 housing getting lots of aid..even though she wasnt a us citizen?...

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

A few conspiracy theories.....After watching the debate and realizing Ritt Mormoney will be the next prez, Riot fled to Canada or jumped a jet to France. Or some Republican mobsters are running her thru a meat grinder somewhere. Or, some of those aliens from Close Encounters abducted her. After all, everyone knows they only snatch Democrats.

I laughed

Would you like to bet $50 on that? Anybody else here want to bet $50 on Romney winning the election over Obama? Hooves?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

It will be more like "You see, none are you are smart enough to see that Obama won the debate handily. If you knew anything or read the websites I read, you would clearly see that. Poor ignorant people."

Oh, no - Romney won the debate. Happily I'll admit that.

Because the fallout of Romney's debate performance from here to election day is gonna be sublime

Again: offer stands until 9:00pm tonight, I'll bet anybody on the board $50 that Obama will win the election over Romney.

Originally Posted by Riot

I can't believe there are not more conservatives here still dancing in the streets about the last few hours of Romney's "successful" debate!

I mean, c'mon guys - "16 Pants-On-Fire Lies" by Romney? "42% False content" statements by your guy?

Throwing conservative ideology under the bus? Switching policy from what he said the day before? Making up numbers out of thin air? No tax breaks?
Embracing Obamacare?

BTW, interesting reading here, and Romney telegraphed 2 days ago he was gonna do this: "Romney Won Using a Debate Technique Called the Gish Gallop" http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...he-Gish-Gallop

I have to give Romney credit, it worked - Obama was so pissed when Romney smirked and lied and said Obamacare had Death Panels you could see the steam from Obama's ears!

C'mon guys - you have the rest of the day to bask in success, before the media, Romney himself and John Sununu on his rounds of media shows today destroy the win feel for you.

Obama's poll personal approval today is at 54%, an all-time high from 2009!

Can't wait to see Romney's post debate numbers after that epic lie fest and throwing conservative principles under the bus!

^^^^

She just put on a dark blue knit stocking hat and says, ''See? I'm still Rita Riot."

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Riot

I can't believe there are not more conservatives here still dancing in the streets about the last few hours of Romney's "successful" debate!

I mean, c'mon guys - "16 Pants-On-Fire Lies" by Romney? "42% False content" statements by your guy?

Throwing conservative ideology under the bus? Switching policy from what he said the day before? Making up numbers out of thin air? No tax breaks?
Embracing Obamacare?

BTW, interesting reading here, and Romney telegraphed 2 days ago he was gonna do this: "Romney Won Using a Debate Technique Called the Gish Gallop" http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...he-Gish-Gallop

I have to give Romney credit, it worked - Obama was so pissed when Romney smirked and lied and said Obamacare had Death Panels you could see the steam from Obama's ears!

C'mon guys - you have the rest of the day to bask in success, before the media, Romney himself and John Sununu on his rounds of media shows today destroy the win feel for you.

Obama's poll personal approval today is at 54%, an all-time high from 2009!

Can't wait to see Romney's post debate numbers after that epic lie fest and throwing conservative principles under the bus!

more factless crap .. your boy really showed so much 'hope' that he made everyone want a 'change'..wait till o bieden gets made to look like the bobblehead he is..you just might lose the election..

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pointmanscousin

^^^^

She just put on a dark blue knit stocking hat and says, ''See? I'm still Rita Riot."

And you're still sucking on Romney's balls.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

the only reason anyone is having fun about it is your such a obama fan..

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

more factless crap .. your boy really showed so much 'hope' that he made evryone want a 'change'..wait till o bieden gets made to look like the bobblehead he is..you just might lose the election..

since you mentioned it:

http://factcheck.org/2012/10/dubious...-declarations/

We found exaggerations and false claims flying thick and fast during the first debate between President Obama and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney.

■Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true. Romney proposes to offset his rate cuts and promises he won’t add to the deficit.
■Romney again promised to “not reduce the taxes paid by high-income Americans” and also to “lower taxes on middle-income families,” but didn’t say how he could possibly accomplish that without also increasing the deficit.
■Obama oversold his health care law, claiming that health care premiums have “gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.” That’s true of health care spending, but not premiums. And the health care law had little to do with the slowdown in overall spending.
■Romney claimed a new board established by the Affordable Care Act is “going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have.” Not true. The board only recommends cost-saving measures for Medicare, and is legally forbidden to ration care or reduce benefits.
■Obama said 5 million private-sector jobs had been created in the past 30 months. Perhaps so, but that counts jobs that the Bureau of Labor Statistics won’t add to the official monthly tallies until next year. For now, the official tally is a bit over 4.6 million.
■Romney accused Obama of doubling the federal deficit. Not true. The annual deficit was already running at $1.2 trillion when Obama took office.
■Obama again said he’d raise taxes on upper-income persons only to the “rates that we had when Bill Clinton was president.” Actually, many high-income persons would pay more than they did then, because of new taxes in Obama’s health care law.
■Romney claimed that middle-income Americans have “seen their income come down by $4,300.” That’s too high. Census figures show the decline in median household income during Obama’s first three years was $2,492, even after adjusting for inflation.
■Obama again touted his “$4 trillion” deficit reduction plan, which includes $1 trillion from winding down wars that are coming to an end in any event.

Originally Posted by Riot

And you're still sucking on Romney's balls.

Now,now....I understand the analogy hurts and is embarrassing.Just remember ,I could have made you Carl Douglas.


I never said I am for Romney,did I?

Am simply pointing out what should be common knowledge.

Yours seems to be uncommon to the extreme.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

more factless crap .. your boy really showed so much 'hope' that he made evryone want a 'change'..wait till o bieden gets made to look like the bobblehead he is..you just might lose the election..

But I doubt it.

Yes, Romney won last night. No question. Enjoy the one day news cycle good feeling.

The blowback on Romney has already started. Winning a debate by bullying Lehrer and lying doesn't win anything more than a news cycle.

Romney has a long history of lying in all his campaigns, and people won't change and accept it in a president just because he's bullied just like he beat Perry and Gingrich in the primary debates.

And when conservatives start really paying attention to what he said moving to the center last night, let alone the lying on "that's not my position", they'll just get angry all over again.

Enjoy the day. You might even get a bump in the next poll for a day or two.

Obama is the Green Bay Packers. Romney is the Seahawks.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by pointmanscousin

Now,now....I understand the analogy hurts and is embarrassing.Just remember ,I could have made you Carl Douglas.


I never said I am for Romney,did I?

Am simply pointing out what should be common knowledge.

Yours seems to be uncommon to the extreme.

Yes, I support President Obama. Don't like everything he's done, and I've said that over the past four years, but yes, indeed, I fully support him for a second term, he's done a very good job.

Your constant and unending attempts to make fun of that is like watching frustrated six-year-olds bully a schoolmate.

Yes, there exists people think differently than you do. You can attack them, you can mock them, you can gang up on them - but they mostly don't give a **** that you don't agree with them

And we occasionally wonder, why your constant personal attacking others who don't agree with you remains so important to you? It's very weird.

[Riot]

■Obama accused Romney of proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. Not true. Romney proposes to offset his rate cuts and promises he won’t add to the deficit.

Baloney - Romney has mentioned his $5 trillion tax cut multiple times on the trail - it's a staple of his talks. It's on video everywhere. But when asked about how he'll pay for that three times in the debate, Romney denied the tax cut statement existed. Outright lie.

Then, Romney refuses to give any "hows" of how he'll do what he promises.

And independent financial analyists have said it's mathematically impossible to "offset his rates and promise not to add to the deficit".

This is where Romney said the one thing in the debate about how he'll pay for it. He'll cut NPR and Jim Lehrers' job and Big Bird.

What an idiot.

Nice fact checker you quote there. Not very accurate.