Lawyer Ron Goes to Pletcher..

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I can certainly understand that view, I guess personally I would have tried a jockey change.

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Originally Posted by Honu

How can you expect a jockey to change a horses demeaner in the 14 minutes he is on him for the race, its not like he goes by and gallops the horse everyday and works with him. I agree with Oracles assesment of the situation, very much the same as comparing the Rock Hard Ten change, some trainers are more capable of getting thru to the horse than others and for this owner he had a right to try something diffirent.

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Honu,
First of all congrats on another job well done. Perhaps if people realized that its the work of exercise riders like yourself, who follow instructions from the trainer in regards to the morning programs, that they would know that a jockey can't just make a rank horse relax.
Jockeys weigh about 115 pounds, horses weigh at least 1000 pounds. Doesn't matter what the jocks skill level is if the horse is rank, the horse is always gonna win.
Its the trainer and his crew whose work in the mornings give you the product in the afternoons. I just can't blame McKee.
It was indeed time for a change. And I still don't think this was anything personal.

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I don't know how the selection of exercise riders works but it seems to me if I'm not an elite jockey and have a top horse that is having some issues that I might show up in the morning to try and work things out before I lose that mount. Call me crazy for having common sense but it doesn't seem reasonable to me to give McKee a pass for the horse's issues if he was too lazy to show up in the morning to work with him.

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

You don't get it. Its not just the works, its the gallops and two minute licks, etc.
Jocks just don't do that, they don't gallop every morning and furthermore its the trainers call as to what the horse will do. Its not just how its done, its whats done.
People are creatures of habit, they tend to use the same methods over and over again. In Holthus's case his methods are certainly top notch because each and every year he has very good horses who run very well, the guys obviously a very good trainer, I don't think thats even remotely debatable.
But not every trainer fits every horse, just like not every coach fits every team in football. Tom Coughling of the Giants is obviously a very good coach if you take a look at what hes accomplished in his career. But the Giants and he have never developed a good rapport and hes trying to force them to play a style that doesn't fit the strengths and weaknesses that the Giants have. he also refuses to change his methods. Hes a good coach, but now priven to be the wrong coach for those particular guys.
It can work like that with trainers as well, even with the best trainers. Their methods don't always work the best with every horse. The horse is rank and after that many starts its become obvious that Holthus couldn't overcome that. So, the next guy gets a chance to. Perhaps Pletcher will fail to take that edge off him as well and he will continue to run off with the jock, but I would say that an attempt had to be made.
Noone anywhere is gonna say that Holthus isnt a very good and respected trainer, because thats exactly what he is.

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

then why was he transferred, the horse would of won if Leparoux or Russell Baze were up

He was transferred because the elitist ******* new owners overpaid and want to recoup some of their cash while he's still running. Unfortunately for them LR isn't going to make much $$$ with Pletcher if they insist on running him with the best.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

He was transferred because the elitist ******* new owners overpaid and want to recoup some of their cash while he's still running. Unfortunately for them LR isn't going to make much $$$ with Pletcher if they insist on running him with the best.

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.
And Seattle it really would help if you ever once went to a racetrack in the morning, even once in your life, and saw how training takes place. Leparoux or baze? What exactly does that mean? They aren't even in the elite class of jocks, and it wouldnt matter if they were.
The problem with knowitall kids who have never even seen horses train in the morning is that they think they are cars, and the jockey just steps on the gas or hits the brakes.
Heres a newsflash, they aren't. What they are is huge animals who aren't overall very bright. The only way to teach a horse anything is by repitition. They don't just pick things up that easily(most of them). WHy do you think that some are still bad gate actors even after a year of racing?
Please spare me the jockey hero worship bs, its completely erroneous to think that a jockey can just change in the afternoon what a horse learns in the mornings because he wants to. The fact that the horse weighs 1000 pounds and has a mind of his own sorta gets in the way of that.
Why not ask Honu how hard it is to get one of these horses whose speed crazy to learn how to relax? Idiots who worshiop jockeys think gee, why not just take a hold of him and ask him to run late!!! DUH!!!! Gee, Seattle, I suppose noone ever thought of that huh? Dope. If it were that easy, every horse would be a perfect ride.
The problem with a rank horse is that while you are grabbing them, they are struggling with all their might to try and run and STILL using all the energy they would be using if they were allowed to run, but even WORSE, if you are grabbing them while they are trying so hard to run off with you instead of letting them run, when you turn for home you have a tired horse who is 5 lengths behind instead of 5 lengths in front.
It takes a lot of work in the mornings to get one to efficiently change his style effectively. Some just chill out a bit and become easier to rate as they get older and bit more relaxed.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.

How in the hell does that not make them elitist *******s? Wtf was your point? Do you even know?

PLETCHER PLETCHER HE'S ORACLE'S MAN!! IF HOLTHUS CAN'T DO IT, PLETCHER CAN!!

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer....not that Holthus is poor


This is a regular theme in this industry....

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer....not that Holthus is poor


This is a regular theme in this industry....

Joel I'm sure hes not poor!!!
I bet he made out QUITE well with this horse, and with the sale.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

How in the hell does that not make them elitist *******s? Wtf was your point? Do you even know?

PLETCHER PLETCHER HE'S ORACLE'S MAN!! IF HOLTHUS CAN'T DO IT, PLETCHER CAN!!

Ok Pillow, heres my point. I'm willing to bet that Holthus made as much off the sale(if he was given the standard commission) as he will off teh rest of his stable this year!!!
I doubt he has much of a grudge against the guy.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

I wonder how much of a ****ing elitist he was when everyone got all their money and commissions from the guy when he bought the horse?
Get real.
And Seattle it really would help if you ever once went to a racetrack in the morning, even once in your life, and saw how training takes place. Leparoux or baze? What exactly does that mean? They aren't even in the elite class of jocks, and it wouldnt matter if they were.
The problem with knowitall kids who have never even seen horses train in the morning is that they think they are cars, and the jockey just steps on the gas or hits the brakes.
Heres a newsflash, they aren't. What they are is huge animals who aren't overall very bright. The only way to teach a horse anything is by repitition. They don't just pick things up that easily(most of them). WHy do you think that some are still bad gate actors even after a year of racing?
Please spare me the jockey hero worship bs, its completely erroneous to think that a jockey can just change in the afternoon what a horse learns in the mornings because he wants to. The fact that the horse weighs 1000 pounds and has a mind of his own sorta gets in the way of that.
Why not ask Honu how hard it is to get one of these horses whose speed crazy to learn how to relax? Idiots who worshiop jockeys think gee, why not just take a hold of him and ask him to run late!!! DUH!!!! Gee, Seattle, I suppose noone ever thought of that huh? Dope. If it were that easy, every horse would be a perfect ride.
The problem with a rank horse is that while you are grabbing them, they are struggling with all their might to try and run and STILL using all the energy they would be using if they were allowed to run, but even WORSE, if you are grabbing them while they are trying so hard to run off with you instead of letting them run, when you turn for home you have a tired horse who is 5 lengths behind instead of 5 lengths in front.
It takes a lot of work in the mornings to get one to efficiently change his style effectively. Some just chill out a bit and become easier to rate as they get older and bit more relaxed.

ive been to the racetrack in the morning for some panckaes and some Marlyand action, and to see cheap claimers run around the track for some jogs

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok Pillow, heres my point. I'm willing to bet that Holthus made as much off the sale(if he was given the standard commission) as he will off teh rest of his stable this year!!!
I doubt he has much of a grudge against the guy.

Well after doing some research I may be wrong in calling the Haisfield's elitist *******s. It seems that they're not your typical second or third generation blue blood and are actually quite new to the game. So I'll just call them naive jackasses since they overpaid for LR.

And they're really naive if they think Pletcher is going to lead this horse to a classic win. If things come together perfectly LR could have a shot at the Donn at GP but that's a longshot and a complete guess on my part. For all I know Pletcher could send him west.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Well after doing some research I may be wrong in calling the Haisfield's elitist *******s. It seems that they're not your typical second or third generation blue blood and are actually quite new to the game. So I'll just call them naive jackasses since they overpaid for LR.

And they're really naive if they think Pletcher is going to lead this horse to a classic win. If things come together perfectly LR could have a shot at the Donn at GP but that's a longshot and a complete guess on my part. For all I know Pletcher could send him west.

I was just going to post a piece about the Haisfield's. Its guys like you who claim to love racing and have all teh wrong ideas that make me sick.
Look, we NEED more people like them, new people who love the game and jump in with both feet first. They would be anti establishment, anti elitist people, too bad you did your research AFTER the fact instead of before your ill advised post bashing them.
Ok, so now they overpaid. But thats what the stallion game is at that point Pillow, do you know much about it? If you are buying one at the end of his career, its pretty obvious what his market value is. WHen you SPECULATE and buy one before the Tri Crown, its always gonna be a huge gamble, where you overpay based on the hope that he wins a classic race and then you UNDERPAID. But if he doesn't you have to make lemons out of lemonade.
Yeah, he overpaid perhaps. And everyone got rich except him.
A friend of mine brokered one of his stallions and after working in this business for 30-40 years, he finally got set for life. Says the guys a complete gentleman.
Obviously he loves the game, dove in headfirst, and is trying to make a go of it. Everytime one of those horses gets bought, a lotta people make a lotta dough. The kinda dough they might not make in 5 years of business, rising each day and working their asses off.
I find it hard to label him a bad guy or elitist because he made a business decision aimed at what he feels is his best attempt to make his dough back.
Most people who play in this business lose. He wouldn't be the first to overpay on a stallion.
We need more guys like this guy joining the business in order for it to survive the long haul. NEW money is what we desperately need. Self made guys who jump in and go for it. Its real easy for a fourth generation robber baron's offspring to kick up 100 mill out of the trust fund they were left. Its a lot harder for someone who worked their whole lives in business to get to the point where they can do something like this if they CHOOSE to.
If he violated a contract, I'm sure it will go to court, and the damaged party be awarded just compensation. I'm not gonna say if he did that, that its ok.
But I'm not gonna condemn teh guy either, and again, I don't find Pletcher to be the key part of this story. To me hes just a footnote. If it wasn't Pletcher it woulda been some other big name trainer whose already successful. I don't see the difference.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I was just going to post a piece about the Haisfield's. Its guys like you who claim to love racing and have all teh wrong ideas that make me sick.
Look, we NEED more people like them, new people who love the game and jump in with both feet first. They would be anti establishment, anti elitist people, too bad you did your research AFTER the fact instead of before your ill advised post bashing them.

Yeah but we need people like them to make good business decisions. Buying a Langfuhr for $6 million is a bigtime gamble. Sure the horse had a shot at the derby but the risk vs. reward wasn't balanced in their favor.

What put up the red flag for me is how one of the Hines' family members loved the horse and said they wouldn't consider selling until after the triple crown races. I was told this by them before the Arkansas Derby. And then all of a sudden the horse is for sale? Hmm.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok, so now they overpaid. But thats what the stallion game is at that point Pillow, do you know much about it? If you are buying one at the end of his career, its pretty obvious what his market value is. WHen you SPECULATE and buy one before the Tri Crown, its always gonna be a huge gamble, where you overpay based on the hope that he wins a classic race and then you UNDERPAID. But if he doesn't you have to make lemons out of lemonade.

I've got a relative who is a breeder and his livelihood depends on people overpaying for horse flesh. I believe one of his babies was purchased and put under the care of Pletcher. Could be wrong though.

It's amazing the ups and downs he goes through. One day he makes $200k and the next day he loses a mare because she kicked her stall.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Yeah, he overpaid perhaps. And everyone got rich except him.
A friend of mine brokered one of his stallions and after working in this business for 30-40 years, he finally got set for life. Says the guys a complete gentleman.
Obviously he loves the game, dove in headfirst, and is trying to make a go of it. Everytime one of those horses gets bought, a lotta people make a lotta dough. The kinda dough they might not make in 5 years of business, rising each day and working their asses off.
I find it hard to label him a bad guy or elitist because he made a business decision aimed at what he feels is his best attempt to make his dough back.
Most people who play in this business lose. He wouldn't be the first to overpay on a stallion.
We need more guys like this guy joining the business in order for it to survive the long haul. NEW money is what we desperately need. Self made guys who jump in and go for it. Its real easy for a fourth generation robber baron's offspring to kick up 100 mill out of the trust fund they were left. Its a lot harder for someone who worked their whole lives in business to get to the point where they can do something like this if they CHOOSE to.
If he violated a contract, I'm sure it will go to court, and the damaged party be awarded just compensation. I'm not gonna say if he did that, that its ok.
But I'm not gonna condemn teh guy either, and again, I don't find Pletcher to be the key part of this story. To me hes just a footnote. If it wasn't Pletcher it woulda been some other big name trainer whose already successful. I don't see the difference.

Hey I admit what I said about them was wrong. But part of the blame of the state of racing is the way these *******s who inherited their wealth/farm have squandered everything their kin had worked for. They end up selling the farm to a sheikh and then we have to endure those ungrateful pricks winning all of the big races and owning all of the top stallions and mares.

Makes me sick.

I root for people like the Haisfields. We need 1000 more of them.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Yeah but we need people like them to make good business decisions. Buying a Langfuhr for $6 million is a bigtime gamble. Sure the horse had a shot at the derby but the risk vs. reward wasn't balanced in their favor.

What put up the red flag for me is how one of the Hines' family members loved the horse and said they wouldn't consider selling until after the triple crown races. I was told this by them before the Arkansas Derby. And then all of a sudden the horse is for sale? Hmm.



I've got a relative who is a breeder and his livelihood depends on people overpaying for horse flesh. I believe one of his babies was purchased and put under the care of Pletcher. Could be wrong though.

It's amazing the ups and downs he goes through. One day he makes $200k and the next day he loses a mare because she kicked her stall.



Hey I admit what I said about them was wrong. But part of the blame of the state of racing is the way these *******s who inherited their wealth/farm have squandered everything their kin had worked for. They end up selling the farm to a sheikh and then we have to endure those ungrateful pricks winning all of the big races and owning all of the top stallions and mares.

Makes me sick.

I root for people like the Haisfields. We need 1000 more of them.

I'm very willing to bet that the relative who said they would never sell had a real change of heart when the offer was put in front of them!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by oracle80

I'm very willing to bet that the relative who said they would never sell had a real change of heart when the offer was put in front of them!!!!!!!!

Mr. Hines was a multi-millionaire. I mean absolutely loaded. Owned one of the largest tool and die operations in Kentucky.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Mr. Hines was a multi-millionaire. I mean absolutely loaded. Owned one of the largest tool and die operations in Kentucky.

And obviously that business acumen was well heeded and inherited by his family.
When someone tosses that many zeroes in front of you for a horse whos been beating Steppenwolfer and Private Vow, you take it as fast as you can click the ballpoint pen.

Originally Posted by oracle80

And obviously that business acumen was well heeded and inherited by his family.
When someone tosses that many zeroes in front of you for a horse whos been beating Steppenwolfer and Private Vow, you take it as fast as you can click the ballpoint pen.

Oh yeah and laugh all the way to the bank.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Oh yeah and laugh all the way to the bank.

Right, I agree ok? So everyone made a score here, the agent who brokered it, the family who sold, and I won't say it as a fact, but I would be willing to bet that Holthus made a SCORE!! And I mean, zeroes Pillow Pants. More than he made in 10%, and more than if he won a lotta cash the next year with him.

So the guy moved him? So what? There are no injured parties here, except the guy who bought him.