Police state reached

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by OldDog

I've heard a lot about "profiling" for the past 10-15 years, but not about "the very real and terrible pattern of police killings of African-American men." Is this pattern something about which someone can educate me?

There was a study done recently that an African American is shot dead by a member of law enforcement or person otherwise protected by the government every 28 hours. That's almost one a day.

But a white guy can go into a movie theater, kill a dozen, and be taken alive.

Here's one about a black man shot dead by police in Target for carrying a toy rifle sold by the store. In Ohio, which is an open carry state.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/poli...src=topstories

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You call the article crap but you couldn't come up with even one criticism of the article. Saying something is crap without coming up with a single argument as to why is a completely empty critique.

I agree with everything the article says. I think the author does a good job of providing evidence to back up every argument he makes.

Eric Holder is a joke. He is just a liberal activist who only likes to prosecute certain groups. This has always been his modus operandi dating back to when he first came into office and dropped the case against the New Black Panthers. If that case had been against the KKK, rather than the New Black Panthers, Holder would have had the full weight of his office prosecuting that case.

Anyway, going back to this current case, I don't care whether you are liberal or conservative. I don't think there is one of you that could look at me with a straight face and tell me that Eric Holder would be in Ferguson with 40 FBI agents investigating this case if the police officer was black and the shooting victim was white. That is the point that the author of the article is trying to make and any objective person would agree with that.

If you go, you are damned, if you don't go, you are damned..that's the real point here.

[OldDog]

Thanks, Bob, for your thoughtful comment. Natch you have no problem with federal agencies being staffed with left-wing idealogues.

To continue...
"WASHINGTON — Nearly two times a week in the United States, a white police officer killed a black person during a seven-year period ending in 2012, according to the most recent accounts of justifiable homicide reported to the FBI. On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...data/14060357/

96 of 400, or 24%.

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an..._United_States
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...133967273.html

Is it really a stretch that black deaths at the hands of police make up 24% of the total deaths at the hands of the police?

As for the DOJ, never in history has it inserted itself into a case as quickly as it has this one. Why do you suppose that is?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

Thanks, Bob, for your thoughtful comment. Natch you have no problem with federal agencies being staffed with left-wing idealogues.

To continue...
"WASHINGTON — Nearly two times a week in the United States, a white police officer killed a black person during a seven-year period ending in 2012, according to the most recent accounts of justifiable homicide reported to the FBI. On average, there were 96 such incidents among at least 400 police killings each year that were reported to the FBI by local police."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...data/14060357/

96 of 400, or 24%.

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an..._United_States
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...133967273.html

Is it really a stretch that black deaths at the hands of police make up 24% of the total deaths at the hands of the police?

As for the DOJ, never in history has it inserted itself into a case as quickly as it has this one. Why do you suppose that is?

'The reports show that 18% of the blacks killed during those seven years were under age 21, compared to 8.7% of whites. The victim in Ferguson was 18-year-old Michael Brown. Police have yet to identify the officer who shot him; witnesses have said the officer was white.

While the racial analysis is striking, the database it's based on has been long considered flawed and largely incomplete.'

this is also from your first article you posted, old dog.

so, do you consider the first article a good source? the database is flawed and incomplete, yet you choose to use the 24% part, but don't mention the other stat further down, which is definitely skewed in another direction.
also, how many blacks were killed by black officers, as there is also evidence of bias from black officers toward black suspects.

[Danzig]

to answer the questions being raised, one must know what's going on...which seems to be a real issue right now, because police departments don't track data:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opini...819-story.html


this explains why the date base mentioned in the article old dog posted is incomplete. seems many don't think to keep track, or don't care.

[OldDog]

It may be flawed and incomplete, but what other database is there?

I'm still searching for the one which establishes the very real and terrible pattern of police killings of African-American men, the one that shows that blacks are being killed in numbers disproportionate to criminality statistics.

As for the second stat, about young blacks being killed disproportionately as compared to young whites, it's interesting to note the similarity to the statistics of young blacks being killed by anyone as compared to young whites. Have a look at these from the CDC:

Leading causes of death by age group - White Males 2010 (most recent data)
http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
Ages 15-24, homicide is the third highest cause at 8-10%.

Contrast that to Black Males
http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCODBlackmales2010.pdf
where homicide is the leading cause at 50%.

Is there a correlation between young blacks being killed by police and young blacks being killed by anybody? Could be.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

It may be flawed and incomplete, but what other database is there?

I'm still searching for the one which establishes the very real and terrible pattern of police killings of African-American men, the one that shows that blacks are being killed in numbers disproportionate to criminality statistics.

As for the second stat, about young blacks being killed disproportionately as compared to young whites, it's interesting to note the similarity to the statistics of young blacks being killed by anyone as compared to young whites. Have a look at these from the CDC:

Leading causes of death by age group - White Males 2010 (most recent data)
http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
Ages 15-24, homicide is the third highest cause at 8-10%.

Contrast that to Black Males
http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCODBlackmales2010.pdf
where homicide is the leading cause at 50%.

Is there a correlation between young blacks being killed by police and young blacks being killed by anybody? Could be.

a flawed study isn't better than no study. that's the point, like i put in the last post, there is no requirement that anyone give out any info. no one is tracking it.
apparently because no one cares enough to track it.
so no one can prove or disprove anything at this point. it seems the best thing to do would be for everyone to track this, and for everyone to also make sure their police aren't just trained, they must follow up on that training.
the only training subsequent to the academy my father ever went thru was when they'd send you to the range once a year to make sure you could still shoot fairly accurately.
many occupations require follow up training, continuing education, etc. surely the police should be one of the groups who does so?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

There was a study done recently that an African American is shot dead by a member of law enforcement or person otherwise protected by the government every 28 hours. That's almost one a day.

That's an astonishing fact.

I courious what the statistic would reflect in cities where neighborhoods comprised entirely of white people, almost all on some sort of welfare, where 74% of the gun related shootings are committed by white gang bangers would be - do you have those facts by any chance?

Oh wait...I see now.....so....if that doesn't exist, it would be logical to assume that....never mind... keep on keepin' on with this nonsense.

What's next? Are we going to get lectured on how it's all the white people's fault that there are bad neighborhoods comprised entirely of non-whites?

Keep banging this inane, self-loathing drum. It's ridiculous, especially when commented on from a perfectly safe and hypocritical distance. When did your family leave the 'ole neighborhood?

If you really want to make a difference instead of making up an excuse to blame "white people", why don't you move to the middle of Ferguson and set an example?

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Danzig

so no one can prove or disprove anything at this point.

So, why the rush to judgement by (some) black "leaders," and the main stream media? Why are they claiming something which, if you're right, can neither be proven nor disproven, namely that young blacks are being killed by police more than young whites, hispanics or asians? (rhetorical, I know)

And why did Obama so quickly dispatch Eric Holder to Ferguson? Was it so that he could publicly recall his own "angry" experience with police? Maybe he's considering his own run for the 2016 nomination.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Keep banging this inane, self-loathing drum. It's ridiculous, especially when commented on from a perfectly safe and hypocritical distance. When did your family leave the 'ole neighborhood?

If you really want to make a difference instead of making up an excuse to blame "white people", why don't you move to the middle of Ferguson and set an example?

Here's the 2010 Census breakdown of the racial demographics of my neighborhood:

White: 18%
Black: 49%
Hispanic: 17%
Asian: 10%
Other: 5%

But thanks for making a blind, erroneous assumption about me. You know, like the Ferguson PD does about the citizens they're supposed to be protecting and serving.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by OldDog

So, why the rush to judgement by (some) black "leaders," and the main stream media? Why are they claiming something which, if you're right, can neither be proven nor disproven, namely that young blacks are being killed by police more than young whites, hispanics or asians? (rhetorical, I know)

And why did Obama so quickly dispatch Eric Holder to Ferguson? Was it so that he could publicly recall his own "angry" experience with police? Maybe he's considering his own run for the 2016 nomination.

altho there are no stats faithfully compiled regarding use of force, there are many studies about race, bias, stop and frisk stats, etc.
and there's also tons of anecdotal evidence. it's not a rush to judgement. they live it every day.
why did obama dispatch holder? because it's a big mess over there. the county is investigating their own, which is ripe for problems right off. there's evidence coming out of past run ins there, discussion of other times where there's bias. and i have to say, this trickle of info coming out now and then is mind boggling. they took days to interview suspects, and only did so when the thing blew wide open.
as for his own 'angry' experience with police....
this is why it's so difficult to have race discussions. if someone says 'this happened to me' there are those who will dismiss it. if someone writes that it seems there is a disproportionate number of cops vs blacks as compared to other groups, they're a self hating liberal.
there was an article discussing ferguson police and stops on blacks vs whites, and the disparity in criminal finding. more often than not, the whites were actually the ones found with contraband-but everyone knows that it's more likely a black man will be stopped than a white man.
i'll never forget hearing the story of a black guy at the store (i think it was neil degrasse tyson) who went to leave, and at the exact moment he was leaving the store, a white guy went thru the security gates with him.
the alarm went off. they stopped him. not both him and the other guy...just him.

[Danzig]

i wonder if any one has ever dressed and made themselves up to look black, to see if they're treated differently....anyone know?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Here's the 2010 Census breakdown of the racial demographics of my neighborhood:

White: 18%
Black: 49%
Hispanic: 17%
Asian: 10%
Other: 5%

But thanks for making a blind, erroneous assumption about me. You know, like the Ferguson PD does about the citizens they're supposed to be protecting and serving.

Very good for you! You get to live in Utopia. I'd have to guess that you don't have much of a problem with crime, drugs, gangs, etc. either, and everyone is a responsible, upstanding citizen.

My Grandmother lived in a very, very similar neighborhood. 40 years ago.

About 10 years later (mid-80's), after everyone else had fled and her house had been broken into for the 3rd time in less than six months, she received a personal visit from the chief of police who told her to get the hell out before she was killed.

I'm sure that her stubbornness to not draw conclusions about her new neighbors based on their skin color was commendable by some, but not realistic.

So spare me this nonsense. Please. Put up or shut up. Move to a neighborhood that is 95%+ non-white and tell us again how unfair it is that everyone that gets arrested there is non-white. Or sit in your ivory tower and do it. It really makes no difference. It's appalling hypocritical regardless.

[Pants II]

Oh here we go with the "muh sympathy" card.

Useless statistics that can be endlessly countered between people that will not change their mind no matter what.

You would be more productive trying to blow yourself.

Meanwhile the Attorney General of the United States just revealed his bias yesterday by throwing race into the equation. If I white attorney general had gave a pandering speech like he did to an angry group of whites the liberal idiots on here would be comparing it to the KKK.

Just go **** yourselves, idiots.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Very good for you! You get to live in Utopia. I'd have to guess that you don't have much of a problem with crime, drugs, gangs, etc. either, and everyone is a responsible, upstanding citizen.

My Grandmother lived in a very, very similar neighborhood. 40 years ago.

About 10 years later (mid-80's), after everyone else had fled and her house had been broken into for the 3rd time in less than six months, she received a personal visit from the chief of police who told her to get the hell out before she was killed.

I'm sure that her stubbornness to not draw conclusions about her new neighbors based on their skin color was commendable by some, but not realistic.

So spare me this nonsense. Please. Put up or shut up. Move to a neighborhood that is 95%+ non-white and tell us again how unfair it is that everyone that gets arrested there is non-white. Or sit in your ivory tower and do it. It really makes no difference. It's appalling hypocritical regardless.

One of the interesting things the Pew Foundation found out was that whites who live with black neighbors are much more likely to say that the police treat black Americans unfairly than whites who live in primarily white neighborhoods. Probably because we actually see it happen. I have.

Here's an excerpt from the report about execution of black citizens by police:

"5. Not Armed: Most of the people executed were not armed. The police and the corporate media often justify fatal shooting of “suspects” by loudly announcing that they were armed. Yet, it is legal to carry guns—even unregistered guns-- in most states. We have tabulated the number of people killed by police who were armed, not because we agree with the authorities that weapons’ possession is in-itself a criminal activity—especially on the part of young Black men. Rather, we present this data only to demonstrate how flimsy police justification often is.

136 (or 44% of 313) had no weapon at all at the time they were executed.

83 (or 27% of 313) allegedly possessed a gun. It has been demonstrated that police reports of gun possession frequently turn out to be false. Police are infamous for planting weapons or declaring that a cell phone, wallet or other harmless object is a gun. We, therefore, coded “armed status” as “alleged” if there was no corroboration that a suspect was indeed armed. Another 6
people or 2% were alleged to possess knives or other cutting tools.

62 (20% of the 313) Did, in fact, possess guns—and that total includes at least 3 toy or replica guns. Another 23 (7%) had verified knives or cutting implements.

It is also important to keep in mind that after reading through the details of 313 killings, only 42 of them (13%) involved a “suspect” definitely or allegedly shooting—which would make the gun possession illegal."

http://mxgm.org/operation-ghetto-sto...-black-people/

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

One of the interesting things the Pew Foundation found out was that whites who live with black neighbors are much more likely to say that the police treat black Americans unfairly than whites who live in primarily white neighborhoods. Probably because we actually see it happen. I have.

Here's an excerpt from the report about execution of black citizens by police:

"5. Not Armed: Most of the people executed were not armed. The police and the corporate media often justify fatal shooting of “suspects” by loudly announcing that they were armed. Yet, it is legal to carry guns—even unregistered guns-- in most states. We have tabulated the number of people killed by police who were armed, not because we agree with the authorities that weapons’ possession is in-itself a criminal activity—especially on the part of young Black men. Rather, we present this data only to demonstrate how flimsy police justification often is.

136 (or 44% of 313) had no weapon at all at the time they were executed.

83 (or 27% of 313) allegedly possessed a gun. It has been demonstrated that police reports of gun possession frequently turn out to be false. Police are infamous for planting weapons or declaring that a cell phone, wallet or other harmless object is a gun. We, therefore, coded “armed status” as “alleged” if there was no corroboration that a suspect was indeed armed. Another 6
people or 2% were alleged to possess knives or other cutting tools.

62 (20% of the 313) Did, in fact, possess guns—and that total includes at least 3 toy or replica guns. Another 23 (7%) had verified knives or cutting implements.

It is also important to keep in mind that after reading through the details of 313 killings, only 42 of them (13%) involved a “suspect” definitely or allegedly shooting—which would make the gun possession illegal."

http://mxgm.org/operation-ghetto-sto...-black-people/

We will not turn back “Operation Desert Storm” and the military machine that aims to keep Black and other oppressed people subordinate and contained, until we defeat and dismantle the systems of colonialism, national oppression, white supremacy, capitalism and imperialism. It is imperative that we build a broad and dynamic mass movement capable of transforming the system and building a new social order.

That's some pretty wild reading. I only got through a handful of the first killings of 2012. Following the links

1/1/12 Michael Smith: Armed? "allegedly" Excessive force used? Yes.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...marquette-park

1/9/12 Sean Egana: Armed? Yes. Excessive force used? TBD. (Really??)
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...arjacking.html

1/12/12 Donald Johnson: Armed? Yes. Excessive force used? No.
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...olice_aft.html
Comment: The six NOPD involved in the shooting were on desk duty for more than a month until investigation found the killing "justifiable."

All those killed are grouped together beneath the heading:
Black People Executed without Trial by Police, Security Guards and Vigilantes
and their names, including those above are listed in the 2012 Memorial Pages with the inscription,
"We will never forget. May they rest in power."

[Danzig]

the guard is leaving...

http://news.msn.com/us/nixon-orders-...-from-ferguson

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by GBBob

If you go, you are damned, if you don't go, you are damned..that's the real point here.

There is no reason for Eric Holder to be there. There are officer involved shootings every day all over the country. Local authorities investigate and make a determination as to whether the shooting was justified or not. If they determine that the shooting was not justified, then the case is referred to the local DA to determine what charges (if any) should be brought.

Why should this case be any different? There should be an investigation and if they find the shooting was not justified, then refer the case to the local DA. If it appeared that the local authorities including the DA were not doing their job and that a person's civil rights may have been violated, it would be at that time that Eric Holder should come in and look into the case. Why is he there right now?

Two conditions are necessary for civil rights charges to be considered. The first condition is that justice was not served at the local level for whatever reason. There could be several reasons for this. Maybe the local authorities would not do their job or maybe they did do their job but the jury wouldn't convict for whatever reason.

So the first condition necessary for civil rights charges to be considered is that justice was not served at the local level. The second condition necessary is that there is evidence of a racial component to the crime. In this case, at this point, not only is there is no evidence that any crime was committed by the officer, but there is certainly no evidence that the officer shot the guy because he was black. There is no evidence of any racial bias on the part of this officer. This officer actually has a perfect record.

So for Eric Holder to be in Ferguson right now with 40 FBI agents is absurd. It is totally premature. Holder has no business with this case at this point. He has no jurisdiction. He should do what he did with the George Zimmerman case (with a little less meddling). He should stand back and let the local authorities do their job. If he wants to look over their shoulder a little bit to make sure they are doing their job, that is fine. But until and unless the two conditions I mentioned before are met, Holder should not be there and he should stay out of this case.

[bigrun]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i wonder if any one has ever dressed and made themselves up to look black, to see if they're treated differently....anyone know?

Yes, but in a long ago era..Back in mid 70's my father-in-law, a Baptist Minister from Ky gave me this book,Black Like Me..think i still have it somewhere in the attic..quite a read..also made a movie..here's the story..

Black Like Me is a nonfiction book by journalist John Howard Griffin first published in 1961. Griffin was a white native of Dallas, Texas and the book describes his six-week experience travelling on Greyhound buses (occasionally hitchhiking) throughout the racially segregated states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia passing as a black man. Sepia Magazine financed the project in exchange for the right to print the account first as a series of articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me


and the movie..

Black Like Me 1964NR
A white man medically alters his pigment and reinvents himself as an itinerant black writer navigating his way through the South. Along the way, he experiences firsthand crushing racism and the incredible life force of the Afro-American community.

Cast:James Whitmore, Sorrell Booke, Roscoe Lee Browne, Al Freeman Jr., Robert Gerringer, Clifton James, John Marriott, Thelma Oliver

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by bigrun

Yes, but in a long ago era..Back in mid 70's my father-in-law, a Baptist Minister from Ky gave me this book,Black Like Me..think i still have it somewhere in the attic..quite a read..also made a movie..here's the story..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me


and the movie..

Black Like Me 1964NR
A white man medically alters his pigment and reinvents himself as an itinerant black writer navigating his way through the South. Along the way, he experiences firsthand crushing racism and the incredible life force of the Afro-American community.

Cast:James Whitmore, Sorrell Booke, Roscoe Lee Browne, Al Freeman Jr., Robert Gerringer, Clifton James, John Marriott, Thelma Oliver

thanks.

...'how sassy they were becoming' geez!