Librarians, Keepers of the Liberty

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

The problem with this country is somehow the word "liberal" has somehow become an evil and bad word. People like Rush, Hannity, Bold Brooklynite, O'Reilly, Coulter, take your pick have used that word to such a negative connotation to endless insipid meaning is insane.

I have never used the word "liberal" ... you can look up all of my posts and you won't find that word ... except in this post.

The word I use to describe people whose political beliefs are contrary to mine is "leftist" ... which means someone who believes in statism and collectivism and government control of people's lives.

On the other hand ... a "liberal" is someone who believes in freedom ... and the right of individuals to live their lives without suppression or coercion by the government. A "liberal" is almost the exact opposite of a "leftist." And that's how I describe my political and economic beliefs ... I am a liberal ... I believe in individual freedom.

Originally Posted by pgardn

What day was your 10:41 am post? I see an Arljim 10:41 post.

July 5 ... 10:41am ... here it is again ...

"OK ... after a refreshing night's sleep ... let's get back on the job ...

You state that I don't answer questions posed to me ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the questions ... and I will answer them.

You state that I misrepresent what you and others posted ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the alleged misrepresentations ... and I will address them.

You state ... over and over again ... that white males have a greater probability of experiencing the full benefits of society ... yet after dozens of posts and many imprecations from others ... you still haven't stated what those benefits are ... nor have you provided any data to support your basic premise. Once again ... please tell us what these "benefits" are ... and please provide some support for your premise. (And please don't provide personal anecdotes ... because there's no way anyone else can verify or dispute them.)

Hope you had a good rest too."

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

I did answer your question ... twice ... the first time being on July 4 at 12:42pm. You can scroll back to read it ... or read it again here ...

"Yes ... they most certainly do.

Their 'leaders' have been suppressing their freedom and stealing their meagre resources for centuries. I hope some day the decent folk among the Palestinians are able to unburden themselves from these murderers and thieves ... and able to enjoy the life and liberty that all humans deserve."

That was my answer ... and it's still my answer ... Palestinians ... like all human beings ... including Israelis ... deserve to live in freedom and pursue happiness ... but they've been deprived of this by murderers and thieves who preach hatred, steal their money, and kill them if they dissent. I hope and pray that the Palestinian people can free themselves from the tyrants who have been brutalizing them ... and live in peace, freedom, and prosperity.

But you still haven't answered my questions about why you attack people and curse at them ... and then claim you didn't. How can you write that you don't engage in personal attacks in one sentence ... then curse and call someone an idiot and a coward in the next sentence?

You still have no answers because those you follow blindly have successfully taught you not to think for yourself and you are not strong enough to overcome that. Instead of provisding a real answer to the PAlestinian grievance and single state/cede questions (Simple yes or no type questions) you continue to spew forth the same stock answers you have been programmed to espouse.

Do not think I (or anyone else) believes for one second that you are forthright and honest and posess the ability and courage to respond directly and sincerely. That, my friend, makes you a coward. Your attempt to "put over" on me by continually referring to your non-response is evidence of your self-proclaimed superiority. But, you fool noone, other than yourself. That makes you, yes, an idiot. You hate, pure and simple. You're the worst kind of bigot.

There you are. Coward. Bigot. Idiot.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Dixie and Bold Bkln,
Now that this thread has gone so far away from its initial intent, librarians, would either of you please take the time to respond to a question that I like to pose to right wing believers?

Here's the question...
Has the Bush-Cheney administration been more or less successful finding weapons of mass destruction as they have in finding Osama bin Laden?

Search the townhall.com site for the answer, as I didn't find it there.
Thanks for your anticipated response.
DTS

Once again ... strategies and objectives are being confused.

The objective of any American president ... in fact his mandate under the Constitution ... is to protect the lives and freedom of the American people.

Since September 11, 2001 ... the Bush administration has acheived that objective with spectacular success. There has not been a single attack on American soil in nearly five years.

If someone had said to me on September 12, 2001 ... that there would not be a single terrorist attack on the U.S. for the next five years ... I ... and probably you too ... would have said, "How can that be? Surely there will be dozens ... maybe hundreds of attacks ... large, medium, and small. No attacks at all for the next five years ... is impossible!"

What has happened over the past five years is that our professionally-trained armed forces have fought the terrorists on their turf ... and have killed or otherwise eliminated ... vast numbers of them ... all the while allowing each of us to sit at our keyboards in peace and safety. Some of our very good and brave people have died in the process ... but that's what happens when you fight back at a determined and well-armed enemy ... some good people die. But better it be a relatively small number of trained professionals than much larger numbers of untrained civilians.

President Bush and his administration have been extremely successful in achieveing their ... and our ... objective. Nitpicking over strategy details is utterly meaningless ... the objective is being achieved ... we've all been free and safe ... and that's all that counts.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

You still have no answers because those you follow blindly have successfully taught you not to think for yourself and you are not strong enough to overcome that. Instead of provisding a real answer to the PAlestinian grievance and single state/cede questions (Simple yes or no type questions) you continue to spew forth the same stock answers you have been programmed to espouse.

Do not think I (or anyone else) believes for one second that you are forthright and honest and posess the ability and courage to respond directly and sincerely. That, my friend, makes you a coward. Your attempt to "put over" on me by continually referring to your non-response is evidence of your self-proclaimed superiority. But, you fool noone, other than yourself. That makes you, yes, an idiot. You hate, pure and simple. You're the worst kind of bigot.

There you are. Coward. Bigot. Idiot.

What you don't seem to understand is that everyone has grievances ... there isn't a single nation or single ethnic group in the world which doesn't.

And the answer to all these "grievances" is exactly the same ... eschew hatred and violence ... and embrace freedom, understanding, and tolerance.

That applies to Palestinians and everyone else ... stop wasting time on hatred and stop using violence as a tactic ... love your neighbors and treat them with kindness and respect ...

... and stop making personal attacks and cursing.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Unforunately I have no idea what you're asking, but as far as WMD's, 80% were moved into Syria when things started to heat up. The rest are still there (all over the place). We have enormous footage of the movement of these weapons into Syria at the start of Desert Storm.

UBL is DEAD. Has been for years. The manipulation by both sides concerning this "happy fact" is up to the powers that be on both sides. Both are well served by using the particular "spin" they choose to suit their own agendas.

Many things can not be explained to the masses in times of conflict. It is simply counter productive. A perfect example follows:

Gilad (MIA, IDF soldier) is at this writing alive and in captivity in Gaza. It is to the detrement of the Palestinian people not to immediately release him without their feeble demands attached (which weaken every hour). Fortunately they are giving us a free pass to wreak havoc on their miserable existence. I do not fully understand the methodology behind many of the fanatic's tactics (doubt they do themselves).

While back channels continue to drag this farce out Hamas gets weaker and becomes more in disfavor. HOPEFULLY we get the OK to HIT Syria HARD, sooner rather than later. That's what this is all REALLY about.

The latest strike by two home made "firecrackers" 7 miles into Israel (Ashkelon) is not only hanging the Palestinians, but WE are selling them the rope.

The end of the Palestinian story is already written. No soverign state, and the need for Israel to maintain it's strength and HIGH security forever.

The fate of the Palestinians eventually will be the same as that of the Native Born Americans. Ironically they already had the "only casino" in Israel and were raking in a fortune untill those morons f**ked it up all by themselves.

I could go on for another 1000 pages but I choose to return to yakking about horses.

Well stated.

As has been often said ... the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

When will they realize that hatred and violence have only led them to misery ... and may ultimately lead them to doom?

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

July 5 ... 10:41am ... here it is again ...

"OK ... after a refreshing night's sleep ... let's get back on the job ...

You state that I don't answer questions posed to me ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the questions ... and I will answer them.

You state that I misrepresent what you and others posted ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the alleged misrepresentations ... and I will address them.

You state ... over and over again ... that white males have a greater probability of experiencing the full benefits of society ... yet after dozens of posts and many imprecations from others ... you still haven't stated what those benefits are ... nor have you provided any data to support your basic premise. Once again ... please tell us what these "benefits" are ... and please provide some support for your premise. (And please don't provide personal anecdotes ... because there's no way anyone else can verify or dispute them.)

Hope you had a good rest too."

I dont have time for all of them:

Misrepresentation:and what's so insufferable about life in the United States for people who aren't "white" males ... and where life would be better for them.
Where did I ever mention life was insufferable for people that are not white males? And the answer to your question posed, IMO this is the best country in the world to get a fair shake for all.

Not answering my question: And what a horrible example with the sports... Who are the OWNERS of the big 3 sports? Do you actually think the employees make more money than the owners? Is this what you are implying?

I ask you to take a look at every position that has an important decision making role in this country, and/or the ultra rich billionaires. Now look at at the numbers. The vast majority are white and male. I am making no statements about why the numbers are skewed, I am asking YOU to look at the numbers.
For the time being I will NARROWLY define reaping the full benefits this country has to offer with the aforementioned: Positions of making important decisions that effect a large number of people, and or very wealthy.

Now. After looking at the numbers I am made a claim that I am sticking with.

If you do refute my claim, I would like to know why the numbers are skewed towards white males (which they are, dont play with me with minor numbers like Condy Rice)? This is why I was careful to write PROBABILITY, and all other things being equal (hardworking, reliable, educated).

Good day. I await your valid, thoughtful response. You are taking on a very tough question.

OOPs. Almost forgot. Another statement. If one is black or hispanic, one has a greater probability of ending up in prison than if one is white. There are clearly disproportionate numbers compared to the general population. Got an answer for this one?

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Well stated.

As has been often said ... the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

When will they realize that hatred and violence have only led them to misery ... and may ultimately lead them to doom?

LOL....

You have no answers. Only insults for the oppressed. And support for Dixie's lamentably extreme wish to thurn these people into dust.

Simple questions I asked you. Never a response from you. Never. Never have. Never will. It's not surprising as you cannot think for yourself.

Peolple like you just hate and support oppression. For years it was the "No partner in peace" myth propogating Arafat as the obstacle. As strong a myth as your hatred and cowardice are obvious.

You and yours have the issue and, at the moment, the upper hand. Congratulations. Enjoy it while you can. The issue is your goal. Not peace.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Kindly spell Conde's name right. It's not Condy.

You better learn it. She's our next President if she wants the job.

Doubtful, very doubtful. Interesting thought, but doubtful.

Good luck to your daughter in the IAF. I hope she hates less than you.

YOU better learn that thankfully very few people share your insane views. Sooner the better, for your own sake.

[Seattleallstar]

I should give up now, white men rule America and the world

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Kindly spell Conde's name right. It's not Condy.

You better learn it. She's our next President if she wants the job.

I am a terrible speller. Especially proper nouns. We usually dont pick on stuff like that but if you would like me to go back through your posts do you think I would find any?

ANd.... I will make you a wager she will NOT be our next president if you would like?

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I should give up now, white men rule America and the world

Seattle, Seattle. Congrats on your family doing so well. Your parents picked the right country to come to.

If you read my statement carefully, I think you will understand that numbers can be very telling. Carefully. Probability is a key word. I also think if you read the discourse between Irishtrekker and myself you will understand our probing and lack of clear answers for obvious trends.

Originally Posted by pgardn

I am a terrible speller. Especially proper nouns. We usually dont pick on stuff like that but if you would like me to go back through your posts do you think I would find any?

ANd.... I will make you a wager she will NOT be our next president if you would like?

Pgardn, just one time couldnt you spout that someone or some team will win something rather than taking the obvious 1-9 shot that a given something or someone won't win something? After all, in that case you only have every other horse in a race, team in race, or candidate to root for. Now if you want to start laying vegas odds rather than even money(nice attempt to sucker people into an even money bet on a prop that is never that low), it might be more fair. Its hard to say YOU THE MAN to someone who always takes every possibility except one in a proclamation or wager.
And to answer your response about why those groups end up in prison more, I'd say the answer is that they commit crimes that send them there. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Of course your next response will be to ask why they commit those crimes.

Originally Posted by pgardn

Seattle, Seattle. Congrats on your family doing so well. Your parents picked the right country to come to.

If you read my statement carefully, I think you will understand that numbers can be very telling. Carefully. Probability is a key word. I also think if you read the discourse between Irishtrekker and myself you will understand our probing and lack of clear answers for obvious trends.

Funny that the immigrants who came here in the late 19th and early 20th centuries ended up doing so well(their kids did even better). Reason? Simple, they were proud to be Americans. They wanted to adopt our ways and fit in. They took great pains to learn English and try to be Americans. They did keep their own traditions and cultural values but they didn't try to ram them down the throats of the very people's land they came to be part of.
They embraced this land and worked hard to achieve. WORKED is the key word in that sentence.
I'm and American, and a proud one. It doesn't make me racist or hateful to say that noone in America should have to speak someone else's language. If a bunch of Americans decided to emigrate to a land where they didnt speak English I don't think that trying to force that land to learn our language would be reasonable either.
If they don't like our language or our ways then they really should go right the hell back to wherever they came from.
The fact is that groups who dont want to assimilate into the mainstream will always be penalized. Thats just how it is. I'm no racist, and will call an ******* an ******* whether he is white, purple, yellow, or blue.
But do you really think that some of the groups you cry for don't peanlize themselves? How do you get a good job in the mianstream speaking gangbanger slang lingo and wearing gangbanger apparel.
Newsflash Patrick, if I showed up for an interview wearing clothes out of place to what is acceptable to the mainstream and spoke poorly, I'm not gonna get hired either. So spare me thats its based on color. Its based on anyone's willingness to act and dress and perform to teh acceptable standards in this country. And if you don't wanna learn the language thats your problem pal, not ours. This is America and if you came here voluntarily you had to know that English was spoken here. Its irrational to expect a guy to hire a guy or gal who cant speak English when the WIDE majority of the people that they deal with do. Same goes for mannerisms and dress. Employers want neat people who make a good appearance that their clients will want to deal with.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Pgardn, just one time couldnt you spout that someone or some team will win something rather than taking the obvious 1-9 shot that a given something or someone won't win something? After all, in that case you only have every other horse in a race, team in race, or candidate to root for. Now if you want to start laying vegas odds rather than even money(nice attempt to sucker people into an even money bet on a prop that is never that low), it might be more fair. Its hard to say YOU THE MAN to someone who always takes every possibility except one in a proclamation or wager.
And to answer your response about why those groups end up in prison more, I'd say the answer is that they commit crimes that send them there. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Of course your next response will be to ask why they commit those crimes.

Mike my boy I said the Spurs would win the NBA championship. I was wrong. That last sentence read that carefully. You could use those 3 words yourself.
When did I lay even odds? My proposed bet with the Dixiemeister said nothing about even up?

And since you already figured out my next question, answer it. I have some ideas (not typed yet), lets see yours.

[Seattleallstar]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Seattle, Seattle. Congrats on your family doing so well. Your parents picked the right country to come to.

If you read my statement carefully, I think you will understand that numbers can be very telling. Carefully. Probability is a key word. I also think if you read the discourse between Irishtrekker and myself you will understand our probing and lack of clear answers for obvious trends.

LOL MR G, theres no other country worth coming to except the good ole USA.
Just imagine if they ended up in Canada, id kill myself

Originally Posted by pgardn

Mike my boy I said the Spurs would win the NBA championship. I was wrong. That last sentence read that carefully. You could use those 3 words yourself.
When did I lay even odds? My proposed bet with the Dixiemeister said nothing about even up?

And since you already figured out my next question, answer it. I have some ideas (not typed yet), lets see yours.

I think that those groups have a higher poverty rate and that if you looked at whites in the poverty classification you would see that they get locked up a whole lot as well. I think its a poverty thing, not a racial thing. You don't see blacks and hispanics who live in nice neighborhoods bailiing their kids out of jail very often either.
The mistake it to paint it as a racial issue.

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. Where did I ever mention life was insufferable for people that are not white males?

2. Do you actually think the employees make more money than the owners? Is this what you are implying?

3. I ask you to take a look at every position that has an important decision making role in this country, and/or the ultra rich billionaires. Now look at at the numbers. The vast majority are white and male. I am making no statements about why the numbers are skewed, I am asking YOU to look at the numbers.

For the time being I will NARROWLY define reaping the full benefits this country has to offer with the aforementioned: Positions of making important decisions that effect a large number of people, and or very wealthy.

4. If one is black or hispanic, one has a greater probability of ending up in prison than if one is white. There are clearly disproportionate numbers compared to the general population. Got an answer for this one?

For simplicity ... I numbered the paragraphs in your post.

1. You didn't specifically mention that, but you implied it. If you say that wasn't your implication, I'll accept it.

2. Yes, many "employees' (players) make more money than the owners. The highest paid baseball, football, and basketball players ... most of whom aren't "white" ... certainly do. For money-losing franchises ... and there are lots of those ... ALL of the employees do. And ... in mentioning thoroughbred racing ... you left out jockeys ... most of whom again aren't "white" ... and most of whom make far more money than most trainers ... and certainly more than 90% of the owners who lose their shirts.

3 & 4. Both of these are simply a function of how long various groups have been in the United States. Those which have been here since the 17th century are more likely to be entrenched than those which only arrived in the late 20th century. (The only exception being African Americans who have been here a long time ... but who did not have equal opportunity until recently.)

200 years ago almost every elected official was of English, Dutch or German ancestry ... today all Europeans, African, and Hispanics are significantly represented ... and recently-arrived Asians are closing fast down the center of the track. Every group has large ... and growing ... numbers of wealthy individuals and decision makers.

I just don't see where your obsession with race and ethnicity fits in with 21st century America.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think that those groups have a higher poverty rate and that if you looked at whites in the poverty classification you would see that they get locked up a whole lot as well. I think its a poverty thing, not a racial thing. You don't see blacks and hispanics who live in nice neighborhoods bailiing their kids out of jail very often either.
The mistake it to paint it as a racial issue.

And now we get down to the meat of the matter. I agree with the economic side. So why do we have more minorities in low socioeconomic classifications.

No hard work?
Unwillingness to embrace America?
Not willing to speak clean English?
Not dressing properly?

This is what I am gathering. Got to go. I shall return.

[ArlJim78]

This thread is amazing to try to follow. It started as a salute to librarians and it has encompassed race, gender, poverty, immigration, the middle east, politics, as well as other stuff I don't have time to document. I love it. Although there is too much in the way of mean spirited comments for my liking, I think the airing out of passions is a good thing.

And to think that this is all occurring on an OT thread of a horse racing board!!