The sad cost of war

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

???? Just google "obama health care swastika" It wasn't alot of people, but they were definitely there, and photographed. Here's two:

Jewish Groups Denounce Use of Nazi Images in Health Reform Debate
FOXNews - ‎Aug 7, 2009‎


http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106158

i always find it funny when people attack one party for doing something that both parties engage in. like i said somewhere above, gore compared the global climate debate to fighting nazis in world war 2.


neither party is better than the other. they both engage in the exact same practices, and both decry the other party for doing so....both sides have scandals, ethics problems and the like. both sides have cheaters, liars, and thieves. they both are made up of politicians, who would screw over their own mother if it got them re-elected. anyone choosing one party over the other is just choosing heads instead of tails. it's still a coin.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that article is not exactly old info..and i did read your link. and i also read a few weeks back how unemployment rose to the same numbers with the stimulus plan as it was projected to without it. so, what exactly did all that proposed new spending accomplish job wise? nothing. but it sure added to our humongous deficit. so, i'd think in the end that it will do more harm than good. no job increase that they expected, no decrease in job losses, and a further drag overall due to more spending of money we DON'T HAVE.

The job loss picture is slowing, stablizing. Those are the facts, based upon current data.

??? There are many state projects out there that have hired on - projects funded by stimulus money. Mostly road projects so far. Geesh, it's there in the news. There was just a huge article about it the other day (I'd have to google, it was on an internet news site like CNN or something) - about different states, what they have done with the initial stimulus money (again, mostly road projects).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

Okay, I thought you were saying he was ignoring the recession (not the deficit).

Yes, I saw the CBO numbers when they first came out (it was very well publicized) and I've seen alot of numbers since, and the one that seems to have been settled upon is 1 trillion over 10 years.

and his overall budget is tremendously bloated. he's not fixing anything with what he's proposed. those numbers don't lie either. and i saw yesterday that positive job growth isn't projected for four to five years, which is why the 'good week' is nothing for me to get excited about. continued declines, albeit smaller, isn't a good thing. it's still a downward trend-not a plateau.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i always find it funny when people attack one party for doing something that both parties engage in. like i said somewhere above, gore compared the global climate debate to fighting nazis in world war 2.


neither party is better than the other. they both engage in the exact same practices, and both decry the other party for doing so....both sides have scandals, ethics problems and the like. both sides have cheaters, liars, and thieves. they both are made up of politicians, who would screw over their own mother if it got them re-elected. anyone choosing one party over the other is just choosing heads instead of tails. it's still a coin.

But you still vote, don't you?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

The job loss picture is slowing, stablizing. Those are the facts, based upon current data.

??? There are many state projects out there that have hired on - projects funded by stimulus money. Mostly road projects so far. Geesh, it's there in the news. There was just a huge article about it the other day (I'd have to google, it was on an internet news site like CNN or something) - about different states, what they have done with the initial stimulus money (again, mostly road projects).

job losses continue. the deficit grows, which the stimulus added to. if we are five years from job GROWTH, and our deficit continues to increase, how can you feel any confidence right now based on those two things? a few road projects don't reduce the deficit. overall, i think our economy is further battered by all the added spending.


are a few jobs added here or there, when the overall true unemployment rate is over 16%, worth our growing deficit?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

But you still vote, don't you?

i do. and i voted for a third party candidate for president this time around. i have never been a member of either party, and i have never contributed one red cent to a rep or a dem. i think both house and senate should have term limits, because i think the system is flawed. many new members go up there to change things, only to find it's impossible because of how business is conducted on the hill.

i do NOT believe in a party-i don't vote on party lines. i take each topic as it comes along, and have voted for a variety of candidates over the years. i believe in george washingtons line of thought on parties.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

job losses continue. the deficit grows, which the stimulus added to. if we are five years from job GROWTH, and our deficit continues to increase, how can you feel any confidence right now based on those two things? a few road projects don't reduce the deficit. overall, i think our economy is further battered by all the added spending.

are a few jobs added here or there, when the overall true unemployment rate is over 16%, worth our growing deficit?

What should we do if we are five years from job growth? Just sit here and wait for it to happen? How will it happen if we are in a depression, or still in a recession?

Those "few" jobs here and there add up (the money is there to be spread over two years of it), and those jobs are sure important to the people that were unemployed two months ago, but have them now.

Is it your position that it would have been better to not spend that money, not improve our dangerously crumbling and outdated infrastructure (bridges collapsing on people, highway repairs, etc) and not hire those people?

Look at just the auto industry: what if, instead of stimulus, cash for clunkers, etc., the government did a complete hands off, and allowed the auto industry to fail?

Where would we be right now, six months later? Were would unemployement be? Would we be in a stabilizing recession, or would we have fallen off the cliff?

Clinton handed Bush a balanced, rapidly decreasing deficit, and Bush raised it to the highest deficit ever, and ignored a developing recession. Now we have to get out of it.

We are not in a place where hands off or cutting spending are really viable options at this time, and that's what most of the major economists have been saying all along.

Originally Posted by Riot

What should we do if we are five years from job growth? Just sit here and wait for it to happen? How will it happen if we are in a depression, or still in a recession?

Those "few" jobs here and there add up (the money is there to be spread over two years of it), and those jobs are sure important to the people that were unemployed two months ago, but have them now.

Is it your position that it would have been better to not spend that money, not improve our dangerously crumbling and outdated infrastructure (bridges collapsing on people, highway repairs, etc) and not hire those people?

Look at just the auto industry: what if, instead of stimulus, cash for clunkers, etc., the government did a complete hands off, and allowed the auto industry to fail?

Where would we be right now, six months later? Were would unemployement be? Would we be in a stabilizing recession, or would we have fallen off the cliff?

Clinton handed Bush a balanced, rapidly decreasing deficit, and Bush raised it to the highest deficit ever, and ignored a developing recession. Now we have to get out of it.

We are not in a place where hands off or cutting spending are really viable options at this time, and that's what most of the major economists have been saying all along.

If you want answers...


Look at Japan.


Then kindly stfu.

[dellinger63]

VS





I think one has a line through the Swastika while the other has it in it's ugly glory

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

this is really bad.

i haven't seen this many pissed off old white people since they cancelled matlock.

Wait until November 3, 2010.

[Riot]

Yes, Dell, others have used swastikas to protest in the past.

Your contention was that nobody was doing it at town halls, now; and that people opposing healthcare reform were being called Nazi's.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Riot

What should we do if we are five years from job growth? Just sit here and wait for it to happen? How will it happen if we are in a depression, or still in a recession?

Those "few" jobs here and there add up (the money is there to be spread over two years of it), and those jobs are sure important to the people that were unemployed two months ago, but have them now.

Is it your position that it would have been better to not spend that money, not improve our dangerously crumbling and outdated infrastructure (bridges collapsing on people, highway repairs, etc) and not hire those people?

Look at just the auto industry: what if, instead of stimulus, cash for clunkers, etc., the government did a complete hands off, and allowed the auto industry to fail?

Where would we be right now, six months later? Were would unemployement be? Would we be in a stabilizing recession, or would we have fallen off the cliff?

Clinton handed Bush a balanced, rapidly decreasing deficit, and Bush raised it to the highest deficit ever, and ignored a developing recession. Now we have to get out of it.

We are not in a place where hands off or cutting spending are really viable options at this time, and that's what most of the major economists have been saying all along.

forgive my pessimism, since it's my thinking that the govt got us into this morass in the first place. so far be it from me to think they can get us out of it. i also don't believe that job gains that may result from all this increased spending will turn out to be enough to tackle the resulting deficit. i think the increased deficit to new record numbers will be worse in the long run for us than adding a few jobs here or there, because of the harm it will do us overall. look at the talk right now about our ability to borrow.

legitimate spending where necessary is one thing, coming up with new programs that are tremendously expensive is absolutely ridiculous imo. like i said above, getting us out of the two wars that are one of the largest drains on our treasury would be a huge help.

most economists are saying our deficit is our number one biggest problem. obama is working on making that worse, not better.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yes, Dell, others have used swastikas to protest in the past.

Your contention was that nobody was doing it at town halls, now; and that people opposing healthcare reform were being called Nazi's.

You don't think that's what Pelosi meant?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

If you want answers...


Look at Japan.


Then kindly stfu.

four so far this year for them.

back in the '90's-they passed ten, costing over 100 trillion yen. none cured the recession.

[Danzig]

As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32346408...shington_post/


just found this on my home page. well, isn't that just fantastic.



"Afghan forces will need $4 billion a year for another decade, with a like sum for development," said Bing West, a former assistant secretary of defense and combat Marine who has chronicled the Iraq and Afghan wars.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

You don't think that's what Pelosi meant?

who called who a nazi means nothing- it's what the press does to get people angry about unimportant stuff so that they lose focus on what is important. reining in the spending and having common sense budgets is what matters.

[Riot]

>> forgive my pessimism, since it's my thinking that the govt got us into this >>morass in the first place. so far be it from me to think they can get us out of it.

You're certainly entitled to feel pessimistic, but who then will get us out? Ourselves? How?

>>i also don't believe that job gains that may result from all this increased >>spending will turn out to be enough to tackle the resulting deficit. i think >>the increased deficit to new record numbers will be worse in the long run >>for us than adding a few jobs here or there, because of the harm it will do >>us overall.

Fair enough. Economists debate the same. But where would we be without this spending? We can't just say "don't spend" and "stop spending and enlarging the deficit" without looking at what the consequences of not spending will do to us, too.

>>legitimate spending where necessary is one thing, coming up with new programs that are tremendously expensive is absolutely ridiculous imo.

I'm furious about Congress wanting to approve additional airplanes over what is being asked for - have you seen this story in the past couple days? I definitely have to start writing my Congressmen on this one. Yes, it's a small part of the budget overall, but it adds up.

The health care reform bills cost (using the current numbers that seem to be out there) is a trillion over 10 years, which is less than 1% of the budget. And the benefits to be derived, the cost savings, for millions of people that currently are an expensive drain on the entire healthcare industry, will help immensely.

And the humanity of the largest country in the world helping all it's own citizens counts for a hell of a lot, too. It has been recognized that this country needs to do something about healthcare for decades.

>>like i said above, getting us out of the two wars that are one of the largest drains on our treasury would be a huge help.

Great strides have been made in Iraq.

>>most economists are saying our deficit is our number one biggest problem. obama is working on making that worse, not better.

The budget deficit doesn't stand alone from the recession-depression-world financial situation, unfortunately. Nobody wants to grow the deficit blindly.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

You don't think that's what Pelosi meant?

Are you talking about now? What are you talking about?

[Riot]

>> As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war.

The President was elected on the promise of pulling out of Iraq and expanding into Afghanistan.

[Danzig]

"I'm furious about Congress wanting to approve additional airplanes over what is being asked for - have you seen this story in the past couple days? I definitely have to start writing my Congressmen on this one. Yes, it's a small part of the budget overall, but it adds up."

yeah, obama wants to cut the f-22 for the navy, but wants to give the air force a plane they don't want. i haven't read the details, but i'd venture a guess they're made by two different contractors, and a senator wants the latter for his contractor....