HOTY: If Zenyatta wins the Classic...

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm sorry but Semantics aside, because I know the RA backers like to keep banging this point of taking on males, she did take the less challenging set of races. A true tougher test would have been to have gone in the Derby rather than Oaks, I'm okay with the Preakness however the Belmont would have been more of a challenge to her, The Travers rather than the Woodward, and deciding to pack it in before the BC and at most the JCGC was extremely premature and certainly not one that screams out challenge and taking risks from a horse that is proclaimed by many as one of the greatest fillies of all time.

I cant even believe im commenting on your comment here after you just displayed how little knowledge you have on the subject. Jess didnt even own here during the Derby, it was stated by her owner at the time she is a filly and will race only against filly's. This is why Jess bought her was to make sure this wasnt the case and find out how good she really is. She passed all tests and put in one of if not the greatest years of all time by any horse.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So now you're going to bring up the past connections' decision to not run in the Derby? You're s.hitting all over races like the Preakness, Haskell (where she kicked the s.hit out of your boy), NT

This has nothing to do with the connections, The RA camp are the one's that are claiming she took on the most challenging set of races available to her this year, I am just pointing out that this wasn't the case and it is foolhardy to keep saying she did.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

So you don't think Zenyatta would have won the Preakness or the Woodward?

you're joking right?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

I cant even believe im commenting on your comment here after you just displayed how little knowledge you have on the subject. Jess didnt even own here during the Derby, it was stated by her owner at the time she is a filly and will race only against filly's. This is why Jess bought her was to make sure this wasnt the case and find out how good she really is. She passed all tests and put in one of if not the greatest years of all time by any horse.

Read above.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

This has nothing to do with the connections, The RA camp are the one's that are claiming she took on the most challenging set of races available to her this year, I am just pointing out that this wasn't the case and it is foolhardy to keep saying she did.

Who cares what they said, this thread is about who we think should be HOY. Jess Jackson also said that Curlin was one of the all-time greats. He can say whatever he wants because from the time in which he bought her she did have one of the most challenging sets of races a horse has ever had, that's undeniable. You're choosing to pick them apart as if what she did is mundane.

If you want to dissect each horse's campaign then I think Zenyatta should have run in the race on Oaks day regardless of track condition, the Californian instead of the Milady, the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of the Vanity, the San Diego Handicap instead of the Clement Hirsch, the Pacific Classic instead of the Lady's Secret.

You see they were really ducking the phenomenal west coast handicap horses like Rail Trip, Dakota Phone, and Colonel John.

That ridiculous argument that I just posited is roughly equivalent to what you're saying about Rachel Alexandra.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Who cares what they said, this thread is about who we think should be HOY. Jess Jackson also said that Curlin was one of the all-time greats.

If you want to dissect each horse's campaign then I think Zenyatta should have run in the race on Oaks day regardless of track condition, the Californian instead of the Milady, the Hollywood Gold Cup instead of the Vanity, the San Diego Handicap instead of the Clement Hirsch, the Pacific Classic instead of the Lady's Secret.

You see they were really ducking the phenomenal west coast handicap horses like Rail Trip, Dakota Phone, and Colonel John.

That ridiculous argument that I just posited is roughly equivalent to what you're saying about Rachel Alexandra.

NT

As with many I was critical of Zenyatta's campaign also, sure I would have loved to have seen her ship and be tested more, however seeing how she ran yesterday I can understand why they did what they did.

Neither camp wanted to ship to each others backyard so maybe both can be blamed for this, I do believe 1 extraordinary performance can sway minds, we talked about this with Summer Bird had he won the Classic, what Zenyatta did yesterday superceded the norm for me and she deserves HOY based on this IMO.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by kgar311

100% incorrect. It wasnt even a logical discussion that Zen could beat Rachel at any point during the year. It was unanimous thought that there was no way Zen could catch Rachel in any race. Now months down the line Zen beats a bunch of turf horses and dirt specialists on her own turf and she automatically is better then Rachel now . Remember, when Rachel was running 116 beyers Zen was running 94's and barely beating average filly and mares at best and in one case only winning by a nose.

The whole "who is better" debate at this point is kind of pointless. They are both exceptional future Hall of Famers; it's like arguing over who's better, Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle.

However, one consistent theme of many on this board throughout the year has been that somehow Zenyatta is inferior to Rachel because she's much "slower" on the Beyer scale. If many let go of their slavish reliance on the Beyers (which are pretty unreliable on synthetic surfaces), they might discover that Zenyatta is not as "slow" as they thought. On the Ragozin Sheets, Zenyatta was the "fastest" route horse in yesterday's Classic. She earned a "0" for her Vanity win and a 1.5 for her much-maligned victory in the Hirsch. The only other Classic horses to run faster than a "2" on the Sheets in a non-turf route race were Summer Bird (.75 in JCGC), Einstein (1.25 in Foster), and Quality Road (1.75 in JCGC - he earned a pair of "2"s for his trumpeted wins in the Fountain of Youth and Florida Derby).

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by CSC

For the most part I agree with the theme of your post, well thought out and written, the only thing I disagree on is the 49 fraction part.

I guess if it was at Churchill, Rachel could go quite a bit faster than that and still have a great chance. In the Ky Oaks, I think she went :47 3/5. I don't know if anyone could have beaten her that day.

But the thing about Zenyatta as I said in my previous post is that we still don't know how good she really is. They've never really gotten to the bottom of her. She's never really been all out. If someone didn't recognize this, I could see how they wouldn't have thought she was that good before yesterday's race. Even after yesterday's race, I could see someone making an argument that she still didn't prove she's a true superstar. I mean it was a relatively weak field for the BC Classic. There were no Roses in Mays, Ghostzappers, Pleasantly Perfects, Curlins, Invasors, Bernardidnis, etc. I admit that it wasn't a great field. But that doesn't matter. It was the way she did it. Everything went against her. She came out of the gate totally flat-footed and didn't switch leads for well over an 1/8th of a mile. So she ends up 15 lengths back on a :24 1/5 opening quarter. Yet she still ended up winning relatively easily and she wasn't even all out.

With Rachel Alexander, I thought the sky was the limit after the Ky Oaks. She was winning by 20 lengths and she wasn't even all out. But eventually we did end up seeing her all out in both the Preakness and the Woodward. She barely won those races. She may be the biggest freak in the world at Churchill. But at other tracks, if she is close to a pretty fast pace, she is not invincible. She would have lost both the Preakness and the Woodward if there would have been a really good horse in either one of those races.

[TitanSooner]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I guess if it was at Churchill, Rachel could go quite a bit faster than that and still have a great chance. In the Ky Oaks, I think she went :47 3/5. I don't know if anyone could have beaten her that day.

But the thing about Zenyatta as I said in my previous post is that we still don't know how good she really is. They've never really gotten to the bottom of her. She's never really been all out. If someone didn't recognize this, I could see how they wouldn't have thought she was that good before yesterday's race. Even after yesterday's race, I could see someone making an argument that she still didn't prove she's a true superstar. I mean it was a relatively weak field for the BC Classic. There were no Roses in Mays, Ghostzappers, Pleasantly Perfects, Curlins, Invasors, Bernardidnis, etc. I admit that it wasn't a great field. But that doesn't matter. It was the way she did it. Everything went against her. She came out of the gate totally flat-footed and didn't switch leads for well over an 1/8th of a mile. So she ends up 15 lengths back on a :24 1/5 opening quarter. Yet she still ended up winning relatively easily and she wasn't even all out.

With Rachel Alexander, I thought the sky was the limit after the Ky Oaks. She was winning by 20 lengths and she wasn't even all out. But eventually we did end up seeing her all out in both the Preakness and the Woodward. She barely won those races. She may be the biggest freak in the world at Churchill. But at other tracks, if she is close to a pretty fast pace, she is not invincible. She would have lost both the Preakness and the Woodward if there would have been a really good horse in either one of those races.

but.. but.. she had bigger beyers

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kgar311

you're joking right?

Yeah, I'm joking. I don't think Zenyatta could beat Macho Again or Mine That Bird (the runners up in photos in the Preakness and Woodward).

Macho Again would have won the BC Classic easily yesterday.

[kgar311]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Yeah, I'm joking. I don't think Zenyatta could beat Macho Again or Mine That Bird (the runners up in photos in the Preakness and Woodward).

Macho Again would have won the BC Classic easily yesterday.

Do you really think that was the same MTB that ran in the preakness? Zenyatta wouldn't have even beat MTB in the preakness she prob would have finished 4th behind Musket Man. MTB was at his peak in that race he's a shell of that horse now. If the classic was run on dirt yesterday no she would not have beaten Macho Again nor would she have beaten him or RA in the Woodward

[CSC]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Do you really think that was the same MTB that ran in the preakness? Zenyatta wouldn't have even beat MTB in the preakness she prob would have finished 4th behind Musket Man. MTB was at his peak in that race he's a shell of that horse now. If the classic was run on dirt yesterday no she would not have beaten Macho Again nor would she have beaten him or RA in the Woodward

You know she is by Street Cry the same sire of Street Sense who excelled at CD and Saratoga. Are you so sure she would be so bad on dirt(she has already won on at Oaklawn) to finish behind Musket Man? What makes you think she would be an inferior horse on dirt? I think you are pulling our legs here...

[letswastemoney]

Macho Again would not win the synthetic classic, because he's a dirt horse as well.

When the Classic is run at Churchill, maybe he has an very small chance.

[Rupert Pupkin]

In fairness to Rachel, I don't think there is any question that she went way too fast early in the Preakness and the Woodward. The place to be early in both of those races was probably around 5 lengths back instead of being on the lead in :46 2/5.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Do you really think that was the same MTB that ran in the preakness? Zenyatta wouldn't have even beat MTB in the preakness she prob would have finished 4th behind Musket Man. MTB was at his peak in that race he's a shell of that horse now. If the classic was run on dirt yesterday no she would not have beaten Macho Again nor would she have beaten him or RA in the Woodward

I agree with you that MTB is not the same horse right now. You get no argument from me there. But I don't know how you come to the conclusion that Zenyatta would not be a great horse on the dirt. She ran once on the dirt and she ran great. She blew Ginger Punch off the track in the Apple Blossom. She ran really fast that day too. The Oaklawn Handicap was that same day and she ran faster than the boys did in the Oaklawn Handicap. The Oaklawn Handicap had a strong field that year too. Macho Again would have been 25-1 in that race and would have had no shot of hitting the board.

[kgar311]

Im done arguing about this. He's the last thing I have to say. There is a correct answer to this debate. Rachel is hands down superior to Zenyatta. Most of the points you triy to make about Zen. being HOY are very hypocritical in the sense of easy paths and ducking etc. There are only two reasons why anyone would think Zen is superior and one is a west coast bias, ie you live there and 2 you have a synthetic bias ie you feel running on wax and plastic has a place in horse racing and should determine a champion.

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree with you that MTB is not the same horse right now. You get no argument from me there. But I don't know how you come to the conclusion that Zenyatta would not be a great horse on the dirt. She ran once on the dirt and she ran great. She blew Ginger Punch off the track in the Apple Blossom. She ran really fast that day too. The Oaklawn Handicap was that same day and she ran faster than the boys did in the Oaklawn Handicap. The Oaklawn Handicap had a strong field that year too. Macho Again would have been 25-1 in that race and would have had no shot of hitting the board.

Brownie Points blew Ginger Punch away as well. Maybe Ginger Punch had an off day.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by kgar311

Im done arguing about this. He's the last thing I have to say. There is a correct answer to this debate. Rachel is hands down superior to Zenyatta. Most of the points you triy to make about Zen. being HOY are very hypocritical in the sense of easy paths and ducking etc. There are only two reasons why anyone would think Zen is superior and one is a west coast bias, ie you live there and 2 you have a synthetic bias ie you feel running on wax and plastic has a place in horse racing and should determine a champion.

As I said in my previous post, Zenyatta ran great on the dirt winning the Apple Blossom very impressively in a fast time. I think you would be hard-pressed to find any handicapper on any coast that thinks Macho Again or Musket Man could beat Zenyatta on the dirt.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I agree with you that MTB is not the same horse right now. You get no argument from me there. But I don't know how you come to the conclusion that Zenyatta would not be a great horse on the dirt. She ran once on the dirt and she ran great. She blew Ginger Punch off the track in the Apple Blossom. She ran really fast that day too. The Oaklawn Handicap was that same day and she ran faster than the boys did in the Oaklawn Handicap. The Oaklawn Handicap had a strong field that year too. Macho Again would have been 25-1 in that race and would have had no shot of hitting the board.

Did you time her gallop out that day at Oaklawn? The Apple Blossom and Oaklawn Handicap are run at two different distances

NT

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by CSC

I'm sorry but Semantics aside, because I know the RA backers like to keep banging this point of taking on males, she did take the less challenging set of races. A true tougher test would have been to have gone in the Derby rather than Oaks, I'm okay with the Preakness however the Belmont would have been more of a challenge to her, The Travers rather than the Woodward, and deciding to pack it in before the BC and at most the JCGC was extremely premature and certainly not one that screams out challenge and taking risks from a horse that is proclaimed by many as one of the greatest fillies of all time.

Z never raced outside of SoCal this year. If anyone was doing the ducking, it was Z's connections.